Elizabeth Chur: The Joys Of Canvassing

Sea Change Radio

There is a large swath of politically aware Americans out there who would like to follow the exhortations of Michelle Obama and “do something,” but the prospect of knocking on people’s doors can be a little daunting. This week’s guest on Sea Change Radio, Elizabeth Chur, has fully embraced the art of political canvassing, however, and learned to have fun with it. In her new book, The Joy of Talking Politics With Strangers, Chur shares her experiences walking the pavement for policies and candidates she feels passionate about, talks about how to convert non-voters into voters and gives us plenty of valuable tips for canvassing success.

Narrator| 00:02 – This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I’m Alex Wise.

Elizabeth Chur (EC) | 00:17 – There’s something about us as volunteers that we’re allowed to go off script a little bit. And to the extent that I can get away from the canned marketing script and make a person-to-person connection, I think really goes a long way to lower people’s defenses, engage with them, and build rapport, which is really important.

Narrator | 00:39 – There’s a large swath of politically aware Americans out there who would like to follow the exhortations of Michelle Obama and do something, but the prospect of knocking on people’s doors can be a little daunting. This week’s guest on Sea Change Radio Elizabeth Chur has fully embraced the art of political canvassing, however, and learned to have fun with it. In her new book, The Joy of Talking Politics with Strangers, Cher shares her experiences walking the pavement for policies and candidates she feels passionate about. Talks about how to convert nonvoters into voters and gives us plenty of valuable tips for canvassing success.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:35 I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Elizabeth Chur. She is a swing left San Francisco volunteer, a voter engagement trainer, and author of the new book, the Joy of Talking Politics with Strangers. Elizabeth, welcome to See Change Radio.

Elizabeth Chur (EC) | 01:50 – Thanks so much for having me. I’m delighted to be here.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:55 – The subtitle of your book is How to Save Democracy One Conversation at a Time. It’s a really good guide for people who want to be knocking on doors maybe for the first time or haven’t had success doing it before.

EC | 02:09 Thank you so much. I wrote this book partly because it’s the book that I wish I had when I was starting out. I was not a political activist before 2016. I phone banked maybe every four years for one or two shifts, and I definitely voted in every election, but I figured, you know, I was good and other people that were far more qualified would take care of the heavy lifting, of knocking on doors and making phone calls. And I figured, they’re just smarter than I am. They’re more capable, they’re more informed and they would just handle it. And the 2016 election was a, like a buck vice water in my face. because it really did not work out that way. And I realized that it’s up to each of us as citizens to step up and participate. And so, you know, I started with post carding and then I moved on to phone banking and I eventually mustered the courage to go actually knock doors in person. And I learned a lot along the way. And I think one of the biggest surprises was how much I enjoyed it. And I really wanted to share that with other people because I think there is this fear of talking with strangers and particularly talking with them about politics. So there’s sort of two things. I mean, I share a lot of logistical tips, like how to navigate maybe potentially challenging conversations with people that say I don’t vote, or how to address fears that a lot of my friends have. Oh, well, isn’t that scary? You know, and talking to them about that sort of like being a guide. But I also wanted to kind of share some of my own journey as, uh, becoming an activist and kind of what’s helped, sustain me in this work. Both, you know, on the logistical side, like self-care, but then practical tips about what to bring and different ideas to help get the most out of each conversation. Because I think this is, it’s rewarding work. It can also be challenging and I think maybe if some people can learn from some of my mistakes, there’s a greater chance that they’ll want to try it and then keep coming back to do more of it.

AW | 04:16 – Yes. Why don’t you talk about some of the mistakes that not only you’ve made, but maybe second-guessed some of the trainers that have given you your marching orders to go in and say X, Y, and z when you get to a house and, and maybe you’ve had to improvise a little bit. Why don’t you talk about that improvisational process if you can?

EC | 04:35 – Absolutely. I think one of the things that I’ve learned when I started, I thought again that I had to be an expert on all the policy positions, how they voted on every single thing like water policy. I mean, things that I really didn’t necessarily know all about. And what I realized in talking with people is that it’s much better to be a good listener than a great talker. And one of my chapters is called 80% them, 20% me. And I think there’s this misconception that we’re supposed to go there and just go down our talking points and somehow persuade them by the power of our charismatic words to either vote or vote for our candidate. And what I really found, I mean, there’s some people that are hardcore Democrats and they’re going to vote no matter what. They’ve been voting since longer than I’ve been alive. But there are other people that are undecided or they’re just turned off by politics altogether. And what I have found has been most effective is the power of deep listening and really being, bringing non-judgmental curiosity to each of those conversations. So it’s a lot less important what I think it’s much more important, what they think, and to really be curious about what their experience is, what’s important to them, what their hopes are for the future, what’s difficult for them. And not only does that give me a better sense of where they’re coming from, but during this whole time, I am listening very carefully and in the back of my head I’m taking notes so that eventually I will circle back. And now that I have a better sense of who they are, I might be able to offer a few things that directly relate to their priorities rather than assuming I know their priorities from the get go. And those conversations, have a much higher likelihood of making a connection and actually moving someone closer to voting and to voting for the candidate that I’m supporting.

AW | 06:23 – So how do conversations vary based upon what stage an election might be? If you’re talking to somebody from a voter persuasion standpoint versus a getting out the vote perspective?

EC | 06:36 – My goal well is to win elections for sure. And I think my experience is that I could knock on a ton of doors and leave a bunch of flyers and maybe just talk to the people that are already committed or have already voted. And that might feel good. I could check a lot of boxes, but I personally do still take a very deep approach, even when we’re getting close to an election. And I’ll tell you why. I have spent time after elections in California. We have up to 30 days if, uh, to what’s called cure ballots. And so if someone forgot to sign their ballot envelope or there’s a signature mismatch with the signature on record, they have to sign an affidavit to certify that they’re, they did vote and please count it. And I might spend all day getting two forms, basically making sure two ballots are actually counted. I’d rather spend a little more time on the front end before the election. If I can spend half an hour talking with somebody. And in that conversation help them move from, I’m not voting to, yes, I’ll vote and I’ll sit down with my two 20 something children who also don’t vote, and I’ll share all this information with them and we’ll vote together as a family. To me, that is a half hour well spent.

AW | 07:56 – And for people who say they don’t vote often, those turn into some of the most productive conversations, don’t they? You explain in your book, but why don’t you share that with our listeners?

EC | 08:06 – Absolutely. You know, I think beneath this label of I don’t vote is a wealth of life experience, and it may be different for each person. So again, if I bring my non-judgmental curiosity to kind of just scratch beneath the surface, see what’s underneath that. Because often when people say they don’t vote, that’s kind of a generalization for all kinds of things. Maybe frustration that they fear that they feel about the direction the country’s going, the sort of helplessness that they feel, the cynicism. And I just had a conversation with somebody yesterday who said he probably wasn’t going to vote and he hadn’t voted since 2018. And full disclosure, I often in these conversations wonder if I’m wasting my time if I should just say, thank you very much and move on as we, you know, have been instructed to do. But I just hung in there and I kept listening and I did a lot of mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm, , oh wow. Oh, that sounds hard. Tell me more about that. And there is something incredibly powerful about letting people vent, about giving them time to be heard. And I felt like we were going in circles, but I kept asking questions. I asked what he did for work, I asked what he liked the most about it, what was the hardest about it. I asked him what his hopes were for his children who were in their twenties. And he said that basically it was hopeless and things were just going to get worse. And they had dropped out of school and they didn’t have jobs. And it was basically all over for them. And I said, well, do you have grandchildren? And he said, yeah. I said, how old are they? And he said, oh, two and three. And I actually, you know, have a young child also and I asked what his hopes were for them and he didn’t really say a lot, you know, so there was a lot of asking different questions. It was hard to get traction. But you know, he did mention that he had bought a home for the first time four years ago. And so I mentioned about, uh, and how high the cost of housing were. So, you know, that is like a little bit of an opening there. So I talked about the Democrats’ vision to help first time home buyers, with that down payment. And I asked how that might help him, you know, and he still was giving me pushback on that, you know, and we shouldn’t be giving out free things, you know? And I said, oh, you know, I’m, I’m not saying just giving out free things, but you know, just helping people get ahead. Anyway, this conversation went on for a long time and I can’t tell you the exact moment when something shifted, but I think part of the reason that just, it went on for a long time and, you know, he did say quite a bit into this conversation that no one had ever knocked on his door before. And he also said he had never had a conversation about politics ever before. And his wife said, don’t bother with voting, nothing’s going to change, you know, so this is kind of the environment that he’s in. Like the people aren’t really talking about politics with him. And it was amazing because there’s something that just shifted. And by the end of that conversation, he said that he would probably vote and he would probably vote for our candidate, you know, and then he would probably sit down with his two kids, you know, who were old enough to vote too. And that was amazing.

(Music Break) | 11:16

AW | 12:24 – This is Alex Wise on Sea Change Radio. And I’m speaking to Elizabeth Chur. Her new book is The Joy of Talking Politics with Strangers, How to Save Democracy One Conversation at a Time. So Elizabeth, you were talking about this person that you spent a little extra time trying to convince, and they had never had people knocking on their doors and engaging with them. On the flip side, what about people who seemed to be turned off by all these people coming to their doors wanting to talk politics?

EC | 12:53 – Sure. I have had people say, for example, you’re the third person who’s called me this week and they’re just sick of it. And I, and I’ll say, I try to bring a spirit of humility, not entitlement and gratitude and curiosity. So I’ll say, oh, I’m so sorry, uh, but I’m so curious. What did you tell the other people? I want to hear what you told those other people. So it, you know, it sort of takes it away from this adversarial thing to, I’m genuinely curious and I didn’t get to hear because your opinion’s important, I want to know. And that person stayed on the line with me and we ended up talking for about 20 minutes. And oh, and then she was suspicious. This was phone banking, so a little bit different, but she was wondering where I was calling from and I never, I never lie. I said, you know, I am calling from the Bay Area. And she said, but the area code is from Southern California. There’s all these scams. And, and I said, well I am calling from the Bay Area, I’m, you know, calling through the system. I said, but I have spent time in your town before. And this was during the pandemic. And I said, and I hope to go back there once things, calm down with the pandemic. But when I do go back, do you have any restaurant recommendations for me? I always like to ask locals because they know the best places to eat. And she told me Superior Dairy. And I said, well, what would you recommend getting there? And she said, I think she said like the chocolate fudge sundae, you know, . And so anyway, that may seem superfluous and has nothing to do with politics, but there’s something about us as volunteers that we’re allowed to go off script a little bit. And to the extent that I can get away from the canned marketing script and make a person to person connection, I think really goes a long way to lower people’s defenses, engage with them and build rapport, which is really important. And another volunteer of mine who has assisted with some of our workshops, he compared it to talking with the neighbors who just moved in next door. You know, you would sort of just have this kind of relaxed conversation, get to know them a little bit. And again, this might just seem fluffy and a waste of time, but I got to tell you, for people that, and start out being really bristly and hostile, it can really open up a lot.

AW | 15:04 – And you can often have very productive conversations with people whose names don’t appear on your designated canvassing lists. That’s an opportunity. Right?

EC | 15:15 – Absolutely. I have a whole chapter called “Talk with the one in front of you.” You know, like , if you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with. And I feel like that’s similar to, uh, canvassing and even phone banking with the wrong numbers, but there is an opportunity there, especially when a lot of people aren’t home. And that can be just frustrating. Again, I’m not really that interested in just leaving door hangers all day. But if someone answers the door and they say, oh, we just moved in, they don’t live here anymore. I’m like, oh, thanks for letting me know. I’ll mark that down. By the way, are you eligible to vote? And we will have a conversation. A lot of times if they just moved in, they haven’t re-registered, they don’t know where the polling place is, they may not know, you know, where the Dropbox is, you know, and I can engage with them also and kind of find out more. So again, this is not being recorded in the app because there’s no place to list that kind of thing. But again, what is my goal? I want to win elections. And this may be the only way we reach out to this person. because they’re not going to be on other canvas lists, you know, because they moved in, they haven’t re-registered perhaps.

AW | 16:14 – So the data you collect may not be great for the campaign or party, but the outcome may be just as vital.

EC | 16:21 – That’s right. You know, and, and again, I’m not here to check boxes. I’m here, I want to win this election, and, and the person is right there. And oftentimes, you know, we can have a productive conversation. There might be other people in the household. And, I, I would say probably, I would say, I don’t know, 20 to 30% of my conversations every day are with people that aren’t on my list. You know, I might just see them, on the street, you know, and start talking with them. I’ve had a lot of conversation about people that moved in people that are visiting their friend or their, their parent, but they, you know, they still live in the district. So I feel like those are golden opportunities that I, I don’t want to waste.

AW | 17:00 – Elizabeth, let’s talk about what political topics you like to start with personally. Uh, I found that abortion is not a good one because it’s divisive and you end up talking about things like religion. It’s just not a great icebreaker.

EC | 17:16 – So I let them set the agenda at the beginning. because remember I like to bring non-judgmental curiosity, and it’s 80% them, 20% me. So I like to start out by saying, “Hi, my name is Elizabeth Chur, I’m a volunteer with the Democratic Party and the Rudy Salas campaign who’s running for Congress. I’m just wondering, he’s asked us to reach out to everyone in the district to ask, if you were president, what two or three things would you change?” And, you know, that can open up then, then they set the agenda, they tell me which things. And hopefully one of those things is a connection point, you know, but if none of them are or, and again, sometimes people say, I have no idea, and they’re, they drawing a blank. So I might ask the same question in a slightly different way. Well, if you were in an elevator with the president for two minutes, what would you tell them? You know, sometimes total blank. There’s different ways to ask this thing, you know. Well, if, if you could, if someone gave you three magic wishes to just make life better for your friends and your family, what would you, what would you do? Sometimes people, especially I would say men, there’s this thing about not losing face. They don’t want to say that anything is wrong or anything. Everything’s fine, everything’s fine. I got this, you know. But if it’s not about them.

AW | 18:24 – Or vice versa, sometimes they’ll say it’s all bs. What’s the point? Just a lot of cynicism.

EC | 18:32 – Absolutely. But I think partly underneath that cynicism is frustration, grief, and underneath that, I think can be hope. And I know it might be really hard to get there, but one thing we talk about, so I’ve done a number of volunteer trainings, including one that focuses exclusively on I don’t vote people, it’s called you. And the 34% had to have meaningful conversations with high potential voters. And the 34% refers to the 34% of eligible voters who did not vote in 2020, which is a mind blowing figure. It’s one third of the electorate. And they did not cast a ballot in a, an election that had the highest turnout in over a century. And high potential voters is a reframing of what is usually referred to as low propensity voters, AKA people who barely or never vote. So instead of looking at them and these people that don’t vote, I can look at them as high potential. And that comes from a Notin Osorio who’s this messaging expert for the Democrats. And so part of what we focus on, my collaborator and Dr. Jackie Tulsky, she is an expert in using something called motivational interviewing, which was developed to engage with people who had problems with drug and alcohol use to engage them about, maybe wanting to change their behavior. Because the, the traditional approaches of, you know, the doctor, you go see the doctor, like, you need to quit smoking. It’s terrible for you. That usually doesn’t work very well. The lecturing, you know, all the facts, you know, the PowerPoint lead balloon. But if they say, so what she, she tells a story in the training about a patient of hers who was a heavy crack cocaine user. Obviously, crack cocaine is not good for you, right? We know that it’s obvious, right? But he said it was fine, you know, nothing fine. But then she find she was, she worked with him for 10 years, no traction. Finally, she took this motivational interviewing training and she came in with a different approach. And she said to him, what, what do you like about using crack cocaine? And he told her all these things that he had all these ideas, energy, you know, he felt like he could do anything. She’s like, wow. He had never said any of that. And then she said, well, what, if anything isn’t so good about crack cocaine? He’s like, oh, you’re broke. You feel awful. You know, no money for the rest of the month. Like, all these things and all those things are motivations to change possible reasons he might want to change. And so we try to take that same approach with voters. So, you know, trying to find what would they change about the country, about their lives, about the economy, if they were in charge, if they were running things. And if you can start them talking about, even if it comes out and really kind of bitter, like, well, you know, I would do it this way or, you know, but that’s never going to happen. But there’s a little thread, a little, a little crack in that wall of cynicism about their vision, about how things could be better. And you want to try to find that.

AW | 21:32 – Here’s what you write in the book. All of us contributing what we can is what will make the difference between despair and hope between the death of democracy and its rebirth into its next incarnation between the triumph of cynical greed and the emergence of a more just kind and inclusive society. I really like that.

EC | 21:51 – Thank you.

(Music Break) | 22:07

AW | 22:41 – This is Alex Wise on Sea Change Radio, and I’m speaking to Elizabeth Chur. Her new book is The Joy of Talking Politics with Strangers, How to Save Democracy One Conversation at a Time. It seems to me like effective canvassing is like effective parenting, where instead of a top down, scolding approach, it’s always better to let the person find the solution for themselves. It really has to feel like it’s their idea.

EC | 23:10 – Absolutely. And this is another thing that I think is counterintuitive, but it’s incredibly effective when they are the lead of the change. They’re unstoppable, you know? And I can be there to listen, to reflect back, to ask some questions like that. Gentleman that I talked with yesterday who said he had never talked about politics with anybody, which is unbelievable to me. But that is the world he’s in. He’s busy making a living and providing for his family, but reflecting that, providing some information but not pushing it, not trying to make him do things. And I have to say, I have a little bit of a difference of opinion with some of the vocabulary. I am not persuading people and I’m not convincing people I am, you know, asking, you know, gently sort of eliciting. And, but you know, the questions I ask are strategically, um, kind of engineered to try to get them to talk about, um, what they would want to be different. So, I am strategic in that way, but I also ultimately respect that they have autonomy, that they are the captain of their ship. If they choose not to vote, that’s their right. If they choose to vote for somebody that I’m not going to vote for, for that is their right. And I am not here to shame them or argue with them. Um, I respect that, um, don’t agree with it, but I respect that. And, but I feel like counterintuitively, by not pushing so hard on my agenda and really leaning hard into what’s important to them, um, and then underlining points of alignment or opportunities maybe to take a different path in terms of voting or maybe considering voting for Democrats for the first time. Um, those are ways that I can help shepherd that process.

AW | 24:57 – Let’s talk about tactics for recruiting friends and family to join you in your canvassing efforts, Elizabeth. Any tips? How do you get people to come along with you?

EC | 25:08 – I think sometimes the most inspiring recruitment tool is a good example. So by telling them about some of the amazing experiences I’ve had, I’ve actually had several friends step up to Canvas for the first time, and then they would actually bring some of their friends. So there’s a ripple effect outwards. And I think, again, it’s so interesting, but it’s very parallel to the approach I take with voters that I can’t make people do things shocking but true. But what I can do is, kind of make it, to tell them kind of about what I enjoy about it, what I find deeply satisfying. And that’s partly why I chose the title of this book, the Joy of Talking Politics with Strangers. I think so much there is this sense of like, oh yeah, I probably should do that. I know I should do something, but Oh my God, I don’t want to. And it’s just awful. And it’s just toxic. It’s just horrible. And, you know, and I think trying to force myself to do things out of shame and guilt is not very effective. And maybe in the short term, but not in the long term. But if we can do a better job about telling people about how amazing this can be, and this is one of the most deeply rewarding experiences that I’ve ever had in my life. And it’s sort of dangling the carrot and basically saying, you want in on this? This is amazing. This is transformative. And I think there have been some people that have been inspired to step up. Not everybody, but I, I know, and I think ultimately that kind of spirit of joy, um, is going to be what is going to sustain me and hopefully others for the long haul.

AW | 26:39 – So positivity, not guilt.

EC | 26:42 – Yeah. And not sort of a toxic positivity or this naive positivity. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it is hard work. You know, I had sweat rolling down my back yesterday when I was, you know, and it was hard. And sometimes I have a headache and sometimes it’s frustrating. But, you know, I registered two people to vote this weekend, you know, without even trying. I wasn’t there to do voter reg, but this is, these are just people I ran into. I had conversations with people who said, you came all the way from San Francisco. probably have to vote this time, just because it’s so, you know, I see what you’re doing. You know, um, people who tell me like, you know, no one’s ever knocked on their door before. I mean, those are truly meaningful to know that, you know, I’m just one person. I’m a drop in the ocean. But in these close races, me and other people like me, I think can be the tipping point for not just this race, but consequentially. Like who will control the House of Representatives, um, you know, who controls the school boards. And I think just getting back in touch with how each of us has agency to create change is incredibly inspiring.

AW | 27:52 – The book is The Joy of Talking Politics with Strangers. Elizabeth Chur. Elizabeth, thanks so much for being my guest on Sea Change Radio.

EC | 28:00 – Oh, it’s been such an honor. Thank you.

Narrator | 28:16 – You’ve been listening to Sea Change Radio. Our intro music is by Sanford Lewis, and our outro music is by Alex Wise. Additional music by O’Donel Levy, Stephen Stills, and The Meters. To read a transcript of this show, go to SeaChangeRadio.com to stream, or download the show or subscribe to our podcast on our site, or visit our archives to hear from Doris Kearns Goodwin, Gavin Newsom, Stewart Brand, and many others. And tune in to Sea Change Radio next week as we continue making connections for sustainability. For Sea Change Radio, I’m Alex Wise.