S5:E5 - The Stigmatized Single Person (And How to Thrive Anyway) with Katherine Spearing

Uncertain

Brian Lee, from Through Cohort and Broken to Beloved Summit interviews Tears of Eden’s Founder Katherine Spearing about the Church’s harmful teachings on marriage that can result in very real trauma—for single and married people.

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Transcript (Unedited for Typos and Misspellings)

Brian: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome to our session. I'm here with Katherine Spearing. Katherine is the founder of Tears of Eden, a non profit supporting survivors of spiritual abuse, and the host of Tears affiliate podcast Uncertain. She also hosts the podcast Trauma and Pop Culture, and is a certified trauma recovery coach, working primarily with clients who have survived cults, High control environments, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse.

She also provides specialized trauma informed career coaching, as folks with trauma often need extra support for interviewing and networking, which I can attest to. Catherine is the author of a historical romantic comedy, which we talked about last year, Hartford's, a novel that challenges gender roles in a patriarchal society that will appeal to fans of Jane Austen.

And she's been a guest on a number of podcasts. including indoctrination, and that's so effed up. She's the author of several non fiction articles and writes regularly at katherinespearing. com and tearsofeden. org. Welcome back, welcome back. [00:01:00] Very excited,

Katherine: very excited. Me too.

Brian: So we're here to talk today about being single within the context of faith communities, which is a big I don't know anywhere else that I really hear about this talked about, so I'm excited to dive into it.

What is it like for a single person within these communities?

Katherine: Right, yeah, and I think on the subject of it not being talked about very much, I definitely looked, obviously, that's who I am. So I have looked for books on this particular topic, and they all tend to have this, like, this like, consolation prize flair to it.

Like You're a single, but you didn't want this. So here's some tips for being happy despite the situation that you find yourself in as if it's like. So so sad. And so haven't haven't read a lot where I was just like, Oh, like I'm empowered. I'm inspired. I'm [00:02:00] encouraged very, very rarely. And then also just within this topic that I'm very, I'm very passionate about just living a thriving life wherever you are and being very present wherever you are, no matter.

Single or not, and I think 1 of the things that I have discovered through just the work that I do with religious trauma and spiritual abuse survivors is that to say, hey, like, it's, you know, really important to live a thriving life here. Here are tools to live a thriving life to then. Ignore the systemic issues that then make it difficult to have a thriving life.

It's kind of, it's just half of the story. And so there's a lot of. Messaging towards singles of just like be content and be happy within faith communities without acknowledging the things that then make it difficult to be happy. And one example is [00:03:00] I learned very, very young that it was okay for me to be single, but it was okay for me to be single only.

If I was unhappy about being single and only I was actively seeking to change that status and at the same time be happy being single and so rejoice in this lot that God has given you, but then also actively seek to change it and actively. Date and actively ask for prayer for your future husband. So, it's very, very stark cognitive dissonance happening within these communities.

I also, my, my vocation was ministry and the perspective that I'm coming from for this conversation is. The even growing up in the evangelical church and being in that evangelical perspective, also choosing a vocation of ministry and and being in that for almost a decade. [00:04:00] And and so I think I experienced some of this a little bit more acutely because.

I was in ministry and, and happened to be in denominations that were just much more male friendly. And so having being a woman and then also being a single woman some of the stuff I experienced a little bit more acutely. So that's, that's the example that I'm, the perspective that I'm coming from and, and then we'll occasionally use just some stories and examples from clients and, and friends of mine who've also experienced this as well.

And. But, yeah, so 1st of full time vocational ministry experience was on the mission field in Mexico. I'm 28 years old. I am the only single woman on this fairly large missions team. I went down. To help plant a church that was like my specific reason for going and the, there was a [00:05:00] headquarters office that I went to every day as part of my work and and, and pretty much right away things like they would have a team meeting for.

The church plant, and I was not invited and I, I, I was actively a part of the missions team and would like, go to the office and work in the mission field. All the other women missionaries were. worked at home and were, you know, took care of their children and took care of their homes. They were not actively coming into the offices.

They were invited to this missions team. And so right off the bat, I was like different here. Exactly. Just instantly. And in Mexico, the. The that's hierarchy of, of marriage and marital status is even more extreme, I would say, than [00:06:00] than in the, like the South, which is also pretty extreme and.

And yet nobody was like, Hmm, it's weird that you're not there. It was like, there was no, and I decided not to make an issue about it, that particular thing. But I was still expected to show up, you know, to church an hour early and help set up and put the coffee on. So I was still a part of this team and help lead the Bible studies and all that sort of stuff, but not part of the planning, not offered a seat at the table.

And, and it wasn't a gender thing. It was. The only thing I can think of. A singleness thing. I'm not married. And I think that that was something that I experienced constantly throughout my faith community experience was like, we not a, there's something wrong with you so much, but as a, but a, we don't know what to do with you.

Like, we don't know [00:07:00] what category to put you in. Another example was, I was volunteering. Very actively, this is before I went to Mexico in the youth ministry, and I was very, very actively involved in the youth ministry again, like late 20s, considering youth ministry as a potential avenue for ministry.

If I did go into full time ministry, and the church that I attended did not have like, singles groups and young marrieds and it was just kind of all adult classes and they were topical, which I think is great and. There was a parenting class, and I thought I'm gonna work. I'm working with youth. 50 percent of that is working with parents and.

And then it was targeting like young marriage. Who are my peers? Like some of them are the same age as me. Mm-Hmm. . Some of them are a little bit older, some of them are a little younger. And so it made perfect sense to me that I would go [00:08:00] to this class, which I did, and a week class, I had friends who were leading this class.

A married couple that was leading the class, leading the class. And so I knew them and then there was an older couple in the class who had already raised their children and they were there because they wanted to connect to younger families. And they were the only people that talked to me, nobody else talked to me.

And it was so. obvious that as soon as there would be like a break or the class would end they would like huddle like so fast it was like like very very quickly just just like ah we don't don't leave us alone yeah with that one we don't

Brian: we don't know what to do with her

Katherine: we don't know what to do with her and so i'll always feeling that Experience and, and many years later, I worked in [00:09:00] California, which is a very different culture and and I had a very good experience as a single person in California.

And I started to wonder after a few years being there, did I make that up? Was that my imagination? Like, like, maybe it wasn't as bad. Maybe it was my insecurity. Like, maybe, you know, I, I felt weird. And so that's why I thought these people were ignoring me or whatever. And then I was in in LA during the biggest part of COVID.

So didn't really interact with many people and thought, Oh, maybe I just made it up. Maybe if I go into the spaces and I'm just like super confident, like, they'll be fine. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought. And, and yet, even now, when I go into certain communities, and I would say probably the biggest one right now is as extended family that is in the South.

And it is a much more just like, Nuclear family focused. [00:10:00] Everything is focused on that and you get married and you have kids and then you raise the kids and they go to college and then they get married and they have kids and then they raise their kids and their kids go to college and then they get married and they have kids and that's just a cycle and rinse and repeat and I would go, go to, go to events, go to weddings, go to funerals, be around this, this community of people and It, I was like, it's still here.

It's, it's still real. And, and after like three hours of talking about feeding schedules and potty training, I'm sitting there like, okay, I have a pretty cool life. A lot of cities. I started this nonprofit. I have a book out. I have a podcast. Like I'm a pretty interesting person. No questions, zero interest in my life outside of how much I can engage with their life.

And so it's very, it was [00:11:00] very, it's very, very obvious in those. In certain contexts that there's this otherness and this marginalization and just like you're different and rather in engaging with that difference, we're just going to draw a distance and at best you're ignored at worst, they're actively trying to get you to change who you are and change your marital status and try to figure out what's wrong with you that you're not married.

Right, that is how that is.

Brian: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. And I'm, I'm sorry that happened to you and that's not at all alienating. Right? My goodness. Well, and I remember working at a church as a young single man. And I was the worship leader at the time, but it was just. It is a lot of that alienating feeling of, well, who can we hook you up with?

When are you going to [00:12:00] get married? Let's pray for your future wife. And all these things, it's like, and there was a big part of me that wanted to get married, but there was also a big part of me. It's like, but this is kind of, I'm fine with this right now. This is the season of life I'm in. And why is there always this need to rush?

People through these stages of life that may not be for them at all, because even once you're married, then it's the whole train of, oh, well, when are you going to have kids? And then once you have another one, and then it's like, some people are just never satisfied, right? There's this, there's this weird hierarchy of.

Having arrived as a human and it's, I can't even imagine cause I'm not one, but I, it's so much worse for women because not only do you have to get married, but then once you are someday a wife, if you don't become a mother, then you're not really a whole woman and all these other things that I've heard that are just so harmful in these faith communities.

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then the difference, there is a different flavor, but I think between like a male [00:13:00] experience and a female experience. And I remember going to seminary and, and the church planting, there's like a church planting portion of the seminary that I went to and I loved church planting and I thought it was really cool.

Well, I was told. You know, you'd be a really good church planter if you were a man. The men were told, don't church plant unless you're married. Like, don't do that. Like, that's, I would not advise doing that. Like, you can't do it unless you're bound to another person or you have a wife to do 50 percent of your free labor.

So the pressure, like you're not fully Incubated yet.

Brian: Yeah, unlike, you know, Paul or Jesus or so, you know, for all this stuff that's going on in the churches in different faith communities. Why does this stuff happening

Katherine: matter? I think the biggest reason why it matters is [00:14:00] it can result in very real trauma to, to constantly feel like you don't fit.

Yep. And constantly feel like You are not enough all by yourself. Mm-Hmm. . And that, that that can result in, you know, when you're, you know, supposed to, trying to embrace your life and, and be confident. And be secure and, and love who you are, where you are. And then you're surrounded by people who are looking at you like you're really strange or just like.

Saying things like, well, do you even want to get married or accusing you of being too picky or, or constantly receiving this message of you're not fully. You haven't fully arrived yet. You're not a full, complete human. And, and then as you mentioned, I think that this can have just like [00:15:00] implications for just like the wider community as well, of, of people getting married when they're not ready to get married and I, it happens.

I am so grateful and honored. That enough people have shared with me that they got married too soon. And enough people have shared with me that the reason they got married was because they were dating someone who wanted to marry them and they were afraid someone else wasn't going to come along. And so they locked it down and, and enough people who have admitted that, which means there's probably a lot of more people who have never.

Admitted that because of how much pressure there is like a man saying, hey, you can't plan a church unless you're married. Okay. Let me just find someone to marry me. Oh, maybe in an ideal world. That would never happen. Well, it does happen. And, and there is so much [00:16:00] pressure to, and people end up in these relationships that are Not necessarily healthy because they haven't had a chance to differentiate.

And the messaging around marriage and the nuclear family can lead to a lot of enmeshment in marriage and, and people who aren't able to, to create individual identities because they're so wrapped up in, in that, in that partnership for women. It results in a lot of them just surrendering their power and surrendering their agency the minute that they're in that relationship.

And, and I have friends now who are in their forties and fifties who are learning about their, themselves and their identity as an individual for the very first time, because they just got married so young, they never had an opportunity to figure out who they were and what they really [00:17:00] liked and. I have friends who have told me, and this makes me very sad, that their predominant emotion once they got married Wasn't joy and wasn't excitement.

It was relief. That makes me so sad that it's like, it's over like, so, so sad. And speak so loudly of the amount of pressure and the, and the. Miseries to some extent of being single in these faith communities that isn't self inflicted. A lot of times parts of it. Sure. But, but a lot of it is, is the community itself of not not having.

And I have a dozen stories similar to the Mexico story of just like not having a seat at the table simply because well, part of its gender and part of it was marital status and and not being Treated as if I didn't have anything to [00:18:00] offer because, because I wasn't married. And if you are in those communities all the time, you have no other reference.

You'll start to believe it. It's really hard to not believe when you're getting that inundated with that messaging, that there's something wrong with me and I don't have anything to offer. Why? Why would I want to be at the church planting meeting? I'm not married. I don't have anything to offer that that type of experience.

And it's very, it doesn't just impact single people. I believe very firmly that this. This mentality impacts the wider faith community as well. And as you mentioned, just like, you know, you get married and then it's like when you're going to have kids and the same thing for child free people. Like, you're allowed to be child free, but only if you're actively seeking to change it.

Right? Yet also be content with your child freeness, but also be trying to change it. And then my sister, first baby. Baby wasn't [00:19:00] even barely out of the womb and people are asking her when her second child is coming. Yeah, when's the next one? When's the next one? It's like never enough, it's never enough, never enough, never

Brian: enough.

Yeah, man. It just speaks to how broken these systems are and how flawed the theology is of identity, of wholeness, like you're talking about, of, of, like you're saying, the whole individuation and differentiation piece. It's like, I, you know, you tell your, that story about all the things about Mexico and all these other places.

And it's like, and you know, joining these different small groups or Sunday school classes I think of that quote from Walt Whitman or Ted Lasso or whoever you want to say it's from about being curious, not judgmental, right? And so often people in these faith communities default to a position of judgment or assumption, [00:20:00] right?

Oh, this poor single person, they must be miserable. Let's adopt them and then try to find every eligible. Whatever, to pair them up with. Parade them, parade them across. Yeah. Well, and then by doing that, you turn them into a thing instead of a person, right? Because they become, you become their project, which never feels good.

Never. And then you, you add on the layer of what harm purity culture has done to the church through the 80s and 90s. And all these people, like you're saying, get married young out of a sense of relief to escape the trap of singleness. And then, or they just get married so they finally have sex. Which is awful because they've known nothing about it and weren't ready for it, right?

And then, you know, in the 80s and 90s, there was so much vitriol and defense against divorce. And nowadays, Christians are the exact same statistic as everyone else. It's so, so

Katherine: common. Yeah, and I mean, and that is one of the [00:21:00] ways that it impacts the wider community as well, is because there are so many divorced people, widowed people, they're single.

And, and they're back in that, you know, phase after being married. And it's again, like, what do we do with you? Yeah. Like. Let's find you someone else to marry, like, let's say the cycle starts again and, and it's not, it's not that, it's not a guarantee that marriage A will happen or B will last and, and, and that, and that ability, as you said, to have that curiosity.

A kind curiosity. Not a what's wrong with you, but a tell me about your life. Tell me how you feel about this. And, and giving, giving that space [00:22:00] for people to be different and willingness and that judgment tends to come from a place of fear. We, we fear the thing we don't understand. If someone gets married at 22.

And has never known a life of singleness, they're not going to know what it's like and so it's going to be very different. It's going to be an anomaly and it's so much, it's easier to just not engage and like, and it's safer. To not engage to some extent of just, you know, I'll let her talk to her people and I'll talk to my people and, and it's very sad to me because it's a very, it can be very isolating, I think, and, and very.

What's the word? Yeah, just like, just very kind of, kind of stagnant and, and [00:23:00] oppressive to, to surround ourselves with people who are just like us and in the same stage as us and can talk about all of the things that we talk about. And, and there it's, I think that it's challenging to grow when, when you are.

Surrounded by people who are just like you doing all of the things that you do and and how much more vibrant and colorful life is when we can engage with people who are different than us and single people are forced to do that. Because we're often alone or marginalized in these communities. And so we're constantly seeing things from the perspective of the married person, the people with the family, we're able to engage in those conversations about feedings and, and potty training because everyone's doing it [00:24:00] and, and it does take a little more effort from that parent who has, you From that world and, and look around and see there are other people out there and there are other, there are other stories in the world.

And I, I mean, I was raised in a very fundamentalist world that was very isolating and very much like feared the outside world and feared people who were different than us and didn't believe the same things that we believed. So it was not because of nurture. Unless it was rebellion, potentially that I love.

Encountering people who are different than me. Like I love encountering different cultures. I love encountering people who have, you know, jobs that I've never had different, different lifestyles, different cities, country. Like I just, I love engaging with people who are different and I [00:25:00] find it to be such a fulfilling experience to have so many people that are so different from me.

in my life. It's amazing. And I'm sad for extended family and in the South who cannot engage with conversation outside of their bubble. That makes me sad, you know, personally, but then also just like, you don't get to know me. Yeah.

Brian: Well, and you know, microcosms of. These echo chambers where this tiny little community's behaviors become normalized and then you view everyone else like you're saying as the outsider as the other and like, well, that's weird when really it's like, actually, it's your little group that you can't see outside of right?

So, so how do we break out of that? Like, what can, what can be done?

Katherine: Right? Well, I would say just. Speaking to two different audiences and I would say for, I mean, I mean, really for anyone, but for [00:26:00] a single person, I would say, and I've had to do this, actively surround yourself with people who are for you and not for you, but They would prefer that something about you change specifically your marital status.

And, and, and they're not constantly trying to set you up or find someone for you. There's nothing wrong with that. And I, I mean, and setups happen within the single community too. Like I. A friend of mine the other day, like, showed me two people in a dating app who are in my community. And and I just, you know, gave her my opinion.

Like, this person, they are great, but I really don't think that you would enjoy them. But this person, the little that I know about them, I think that it could be a good fit. And we're not, like, hoarding all the single people. Like, I'm like, I know these two people aren't a good fit for me. They might be a good fit.

I've, you know, connect friends in other [00:27:00] cities. Like, Hey, so and so lives in your city. Y'all should get coffee.

Brian: Well, and I imagine the big difference is that it's invited, right? Instead of imposed.

Katherine: Yes. She showed me the people on her dating app. I'm like. Asked my opinion. 100%, 100 percent that the invitation has been given.

And it also within the context of actually knowing the person, not just, Hey, this person is single. Yes. That's good. Together. Yeah. You actually know what would be good for them. And, and so surrounding yourself with people who Campioning you excited for you excited for your life, and I, I have actively had to do that and have had to seek out people and fill my life with people who are on my team and cheering me on and there are some people in my life who still find it a little strange, you know, [00:28:00] my.

Marital status, but they're, they, they have kind of moved to being more of a, an acquaintance simply because of, of, of that particular part of it is that it's not, I'm not fully accepted in their eyes and they're not fully able to engage with my life right now. And so that might happen. And it's challenging, but it's also absolutely 100 percent worth it to be surrounded by people who are for you.

And then for just like the wider community, I think just cultivating, as you have already stated, curiosity and a interest and people who are different, and that will serve. across the board for any marginalized community of just being willing to engage and ask questions and not treat like a [00:29:00] project as you, as you mentioned, as someone that I need to fix or my token single friend.

Yay! I have one. Well, the

Brian: other thought I just had is like, or what I often see in churches or faith communities is that the single people get treated as free labor. Because they're single. So you must have all the free time in the world to go volunteer for this thing or take care of this thing. And it's like, can we also stop doing that, please?

Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't mention this at the top of the conversation, but in that same church planting experience in Mexico, usually when you start a church, first thing you need is a pastor. And then the next thing you need is a worship leader. And then the next thing you need is a children's minister.

And I saw it coming. I saw it coming. I was like, no, I was like, I drew, I was like, I don't care if I get fired. No . Yeah. I will not be in charge. Yep. Of

Brian: children's mission. Well, and I've heard horror stories from missionaries on the field who, [00:30:00] for their team meetings or staff meetings, same kind of a thing for the single people who were there as part of the team.

Fully part of the team. Mm-Hmm. don't get invited to meetings because they are expected to stay behind and babysit for all the married couples kids, it's like. What, you know, what is that

Katherine: I did during the team meeting? What is

Brian: that? Exactly. Yeah. And it's just, you know, and you know, you're a trauma recovery coach night.

I don't think either of us are actually therapists or counselors, but, you know, when I think of not just trauma, but complex trauma, like the CPTSD part, it's, it's when these little traumas are drip by drip happening over and over and over again, over an extended period of time. And so it makes sense why.

We get indoctrinated with these ideas or why it's so hard to break out of those kinds of systems or Find and surround ourselves with these people who are curious about us and for us and all those things who? Want a real identity? for our single friends [00:31:00] Or single people that we don't know that we want to become friends with.

And it's like, I just want to know who you are. I don't care that you're single or not single or a wife or not a mother yet, or any of these things, like it applies to pretty much every stage of life. If we would allow people to just be people and not projects. We would go a long way. I

Katherine: think. Absolutely.

Yeah. Just let what? Yeah. And that just simple curiosity of just letting someone be who they are. And, and maybe they will share that they really do want to get married and, and they are sad and hold space for them in their sadness as you would hold space for anyone grieving. Yeah. And, and not necessarily, Yeah.

Okay, let's fix this. Let's find someone for you. Like that's grief like any other kind of grief. Yeah. And, and let's let, let's grieve together rather than. Yeah. Seek to find [00:32:00] the thing that will take this pain away because it's, it's not going to take the pain away really. It's, there's going to be something else, you know, like we're never.

We're never, and I think I learned that recently from the the speaker at the retreat con for Tours de Vida in our first in person event. And she just, she talked about thriving and she gave us this, this grid of all these different like seasons of life and stages of life and your career and then your family and then your relationships and then your friends and then your church community and like all these different, you know, bubbles of our.

You know, acquaintances and, and spheres of our lives. And, and she was like, you're never going to be thriving in every single one. Yeah, and that doesn't mean you're not thriving. Yeah. Just to have a few that are not going well does not mean you're not thriving. And it was really, really helpful because I felt like I was always searching for the state of equilibrium and which [00:33:00] everything was going well.

All the time. We're never going to be in that place, whether we are married or single or otherwise. And so, so being willing to hold that space for someone wherever they are in that and not try to fix it just as we would for anything else. And not treat it like it's this other thing, like we don't, this disease to some extent.

So let's stay

Brian: away and yeah, well, and you briefly touched on it earlier, but the idea of singleness is not just about I've never been married before or been on a date or any of those things, but it's it's also people who have been divorced or widowed or whatever those things are. And it's like when we allow them to just be people.

And grieve with them in that process, if they are grieving, right? And then not jump to try to solve their problem of, Oh no, you're single and alone again. How do we set you up with someone else? It's like, no, that's not the answer. It's like, be curious, ask, like, Has anyone asked what they actually want? [00:34:00] Or are looking for?

Or are they perfectly happy being single? Or is it a married couple completely happy never having kids? Yes, whatever the situation is, right? And I think there's so much that can be said for Meeting people where they are and on allowing them to be where they are in the season that

Katherine: they're in. Yeah.

And then I think just to kind of wrap it up of in order to be willing to accept someone where we are, we, I think we have to acknowledge some of that theology that has been ingrained into us that dictates this mentality that marriage singleness and parenthood is more ideal than. Being trialed free and, and the people who have been told that they're selfish for not wanting children or you're not a full complete human being until you're married and joined to another person those, those messages are very damaging and, and that is where that trauma comes from.

So some of it's [00:35:00] just. It's cultural. I'm like just swimming in it and that's just the way it is. But some of it actually comes from really damaging messaging about deep things. And that might be something that people need to wrestle with before they can even get to that place. Of accepting someone who's different because if it's like, you're not just different.

There's actually something wrong with you and you're actually doing something wrong by not having kids or you're actually doing something wrong by getting divorced or, or, or something like that, then it's going to be hard to engage. So that might be something that folks just need to. Wrestle with and yeah, figure out what they

Brian: believe.

Yeah, that's really good as we wrap up you mentioned your retreat con. Would you tell us more about

Katherine: it? Woohoo. Yes. So tears of eden is As mentioned earlier is the non profit for survivors of spiritual abuse and from folks from the evangelical Community primarily. We had our [00:36:00] first in person event in October.

And one of the things that Tears of Eden does is we do provide resources to sort of name that experience. But we do seek to be trauma informed. And one of the things that is helpful for healing trauma is, is integration between our minds and our bodies and engaging our bodies in that healing process.

And so we had a speaker and she was. A phenomenal, wonderful person. And then and then we also had just very embodied workshops when normally you would go to, you know, maybe a small group and like, sit and listen again in a workshop all of these workshops are very active embodied workshops. We had yoga.

We had improv. We had dance. We had a story jam, which is this live storytelling event and that Opportunity for people to tell stories and have an audience engage with them. Just a very embodied event and it was so cool. It was so fun. It was I hope everyone who is a survivor gets [00:37:00] that experience of being in person.

With someone who's also had that experience. There's something extremely special about just like meeting someone and knowing instantly that they get it. It's just, there's nothing like it. It's, it's really, really cool. So yeah, everyone gets to do it

Brian: sometimes. I love it. Congratulations on getting to do that.

Yes, it was great. It was very exciting. Where can people find you or RetreatCon

Katherine: online? So my personal website is katherinespearing. com and my main social media presence is on Instagram at katherinespearing. And Tears of Eden is tearsofeden. org. We also have a podcast and the main social media presence for Tears of Eden is the Uncertain Podcast at, at Uncertain Podcast on Instagram as well.

So check it out.

Brian: Awesome. We'll provide the links for everyone down in the session notes. Catherine, thank you so much for participating again and helping move toward healing

Katherine: and [00:38:00] wholeness. Wonderful. Thanks for having me.