Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2)

Nerd Journey

For job seekers out there, are you getting ghosted by potential employers even after asking for a status update? Is it possible that the impact of tech industry layoffs on the current job market might explain some of this, or are we observing a lack of leadership and communication?

This week in episode 291, we continue a focused discussion on layoffs with Liz Bronson and Kat Nelson Troyer from Real Job Talk. Liz and Kat will share perspectives on the current job market, thoughts on the connection between employee experience and job candidate experience, how we can all be better stewards of the collective community, and advice for leaders during challenging times like reductions in force (RIFs) / layoffs. Check out the show notes for a number of resources to help you navigate.

And if you missed part 1 of our discussion with Liz and Kat, check out Episode 290.

Original Recording Date: 08-13-2024

Topics – Current State of the Job Market, Employee Experience and Responsiveness, Advice for Executive Leaders, Encouragement for Leaders Executing Layoffs, Closing Thoughts and Real Job Talk Resources

2:59 – Current State of the Job Market

• Do we think the job market will calm itself even if the rightsizing exercises continue?
  • Liz is consistently speaking with a lot of job seekers, recruiters, and many others.
  • There are many disgruntled employees and a lot of people looking for jobs.
  • Jobs are being opened across different platforms and getting thousands of applicants. Many of the applicants are not qualified.
  • If there were 3000 applicants for a job, no one has time to go through them. There is a lot of ghosting happening right now.
    • Liz spoke to someone who had done 3 rounds of interviews. One of the rounds was in-person, 7 hours, and they never heard back.
    • This kind of thing is not an anomaly and seems to be happening all over the place.
  • In Liz’s opinion in times of recession / leading up to them you start to see recruiters get cut because hiring has stopped.
    • When many recruiters are out of work, it floods the market. If companies are hiring, the teams doing it are very lean and short staffed.
    • Different tools popped up that post jobs in many different places, and openings are circulated amongst networking groups as well.
    • With thousands of applicants, recruiters end up overworked and unable to get back to people.
    • There might be AI tools in use, but they may not be tuned / refined to actually be effective.
    • In recruiting programs that are well run, Liz says a recruiter would not have more than about 10 jobs on their plate. Liz is hearing about recruiters who have 50 jobs on their plate, which they cannot do well. Recruiters are doing the best they can right now.
    • Hiring managers are also overwhelmed and may be unable to get back to candidates, especially those who might only get one new job requisition for an already short-staffed team. They might not have time to hire effectively.
    • “We’re just in this weird spot…. The process has just gotten out of control, and job seekers are feeling it and getting more frustrated. Our tools and our people and our processes haven’t kept up with the times.” – Liz Bronson, on the job market and hiring processes
    • There were a lot of openings for recruiters at the end of 2023, which is usually a good sign that the economy is coming back. Any recruiter who was hired near the end of 2023 is still ramping up as of this recording.
  • Right now the best way to get a job is through a referral.
  • Liz shares a story about someone who contacted a hiring manager who said there were 3000 applicants for an open position and 600 direct messages to the hiring manager on LinkedIn about the role.
    • The hiring manager shared there was no way to get back to everyone.
    • “Think about that. When I’m sitting there…e-mailing CEOs or Chief People Officers…they’re probably getting 400, 500 e-mails just like mine. So I have to figure out another way. That’s just a little glimpse into what is going on, at least for people I’ve been talking to. Most applications you don’t even get a rejection these days.” – Liz Bronson, on the current job market
• All of this is linked to company reputation. John doesn’t feel like we as a society hold organizations accountable enough for the applicant experience.
  • Many times applicant experience is something we are expected to judge differently than employee experience instead of looking at applicant experience as the beginning of employee experience.
  • Not getting back to people and employees being overworked is an indicator of what life at an organization could be like for a potential employee.
  • “In my view…employee experience starts at the application, and it ends when you’re in the alumni network. And you have to think it through. And when times are good and money’s flowing, you see investment in the employee experience. When it’s hard to get good people, all of a sudden you see an investment in the application, in the recruiting process. When it’s not as hard, all that goes away because you’re trying to do more with less and all the things.” – Liz Bronson
  • We might see some posts on Glassdoor or Reddit about poor candidate experience.
  • A recruiter could have anywhere between 50 and 100 candidates on their plate at a time, and we do have to be mindful of this. But when recruiters stop responding after a candidate has followed up multiple times, Liz says this is when it starts to impact employee experience.
    • Even if the answer is no (i.e. the candidate will not move forward), it is better than no response.
    • Liz hears stories from people daily about getting no response / being completely ignored as a job candidate.
  • The process becomes really challenging for candidates when the communication we would expect to be there isn’t there, especially if you’ve had an in-person interview and get no response.
    • Kat says as much as possible try not to take this personally because it is likely you are not the only one getting ghosted.

10:10 – Employee Experience and Responsiveness

• John says the applicant experience is the beginning of employee experience. It’s not necessarily a front-line manager problem but a global leadership issue for companies that can present reputational risk if not handled properly. What are some of those lessons leaders need to learn in this area?
  • Kat says people really are bogged down with work right now and might have more on their plate than they can handle. But, there are also people who tend to ghost others regardless of how busy they are.
  • One of Kat’s values is good communication. Knowing someone tends to ghost people would likely make her not want to pursue an opportunity with that person.
  • “Uncomfortable conversations are never fun, but I sure respect people who are willing to have them…as opposed to just ghosting.” – Kat Nelson Troyer
  • John mentions we have Glassdoor but that it lacks granularity down to the recruiter or hiring manager level (i.e. this person never responded after polite follow-ups).
  • Just as we need worry time on our calendar, Liz says we need to schedule time to be good community citizens and communicate. Even for the overburdened hiring manager or recruiter, it could be as simple as copying and pasting the same update to candidates.
  • All of us will be job seekers at some point. Liz suggests we can make the world a better place by being responsive to others in our professional network who ask for help in their job search or might have applied at the company where we work. It takes very little time to do this for others.
  • “And then if we all do that for each other and we all put an hour a week on our calendar to be a good community member, that will feel a lot better I think than ignoring folks that want some help. And it will give us the good energy when we need it next time. At least that’s the hope.” – Liz Bronson

13:32 – Advice for Executive Leaders

• How can the executive leader who had to make the decision to make cuts instill hope for the new company after a rightsizing exercise? How can they make cuts without demoralizing staff?
  • Kat says hopefully the leader in question has a god strategy and has done as deep a cut as is necessary. It’s very hard on teams to see multiple instances of layoffs over short periods of time.
  • Kat advises leaders to do a deep cut so they only have to manage the process once.
  • “It’s all about communication – expressing gratitude for the team members that left, and also this is the new team and you’re here for a reason…and acknowledging that it’s going to be different…. I think that good leaders are good communicators and are able to communicate what they need to communicate with empathy. Those are the ones that I see people be loyal with.” – Kat Nelson Troyer
  • Liz suggests planning for a mourning period and says, “part of planning a RIF is planning the repair.”
    • Leaders should plan their communications and should have an action plan for moving forward. This includes highlighting priority areas, being transparent, and not shying away from difficult conversations.
    • “It will be an elephant in the room unless you show the elephant the door. And the door is the path moving forward.” – Liz Bronson, on advice for executive leaders after a layoff
  • Kat emphasizes transparency as well, and unless there is some kind of liability, leaders should share the reasoning behind their strategy.
    • When we understand the reasoning behind a strategy it is easier to support it.
    • When we feel like someone is being transparent with us, it builds trust.
    • “It’s hard for leaders in this kind of situation…. It’s never fun to have to navigate reduction in forces.” – Kat Nelson Troyer

17:05 – Encouragement for Leaders Executing Layoffs

• For the leaders who have had to execute layoffs once or more than once, what advice do we have for them to continue on being a leader?
  • Leaders have to take care of themselves because at the end of the day, we’re all people. These are hard situations.
  • “As a leader the day of a RIF, it’s hard. And you can’t be in your feelings because you’ve got to be there for your team and for others. But you also go home, and you have to take care of yourself. Because you have to show up as that transparent, open, honest, focused person who is positive and not Pollyanna positive…. Own it. It’s hard, but you have to be that person that we’re talking about. And then you have to make sure you’re taking care of yourself so you’re not burning yourself out so you can be strong enough to do the work.” – Liz Bronson, on advice for leaders
  • John says it’s difficult to have empathy for top level leaders in an organization. It might feel like they are not being held accountable. For those of us who operate at the individual contributor level or close to the bottom of an organization, our empathy is probably more for the individuals who have to carry out the execution of actions like layoffs (i.e. front-line managers, HR personnel, etc.).
  • “Each of us can think of that great leader that handled it well…. There are ways to do it, and we can all thing of leaders who have led well through hard times and change. And we can also think of the ones who closed their office door and hid.” – Liz Bronson, on leadership through difficult times
  • Liz mentions a 2022 letter written by the CEO of Stripe as an example of what good leadership in these situations looks like.
    • Stripe treated their people well despite the difficult situation, and Liz mentioned there were many people who were full of gratitude for how they were treated.
  • Kat suggests if you are a leader who has to deal with something like this, it would be a great time to reach out to your personal board of advisors. Think through the strategy before executing.
  • John says when you’re involved in a RIF, you suddenly realize all the steps you haven’t taken to build your network, to keep in touch with people, etc.
    • The people leader who has to execute a reduction in force or RIF may come to the realization that they don’t have a board of advisors setup to help them navigate this situation and the path forward in the most humane way possible.
    • Liz says leaders who need help and take on the personal responsibility of doing this right can reach out to HR personnel for guidance, get a coach like Kat, or invest time in learning from anyone around them who can help.
    • “Leaders have to take ownership at their level, and that makes sense. And part of that is owning the fact that maybe you weren’t ready to do this and don’t know exactly how to handle it. It’s not every first or second line manager that’s had to manage through a RIF.” – John White
    • Liz says managers should reach out to HR as soon as they find out they will be involved in layoffs / RIFs. HR teams should be able to provide coaching. Make sure you have the training you need.

22:39 – Closing Thoughts and Real Job Talk Resources

• “If a RIF happens to you, it may feel like the end of the world at that moment, but you are going to get through it. And so, take time to process your emotions, and then get started on figuring out what your next step is going to be.” – Kat Nelson Troyer
  • Be sure to check out the Resources Page of the Real Job Talk website.
  • The Must Have List is one of the top items listed on this page, and it’s a great process to go through to help us get some clarity.
  • Kat says the Must Have List is really the 2nd step in the envisioning process. She asks her clients to think big and to write their ideal job description (part of something called the ideal job process). The output from this is used to build the Must Have List.
  • There are several episodes about navigating interviews, job offers, and other challenging situations at work on the Real Job Talk website.
  • Be sure to subscribe to Real Job Talk!
• Liz has learned we can only control ourselves.
  • “The best hedge against a RIF is doing your best. After that, it’s not in your hands…. Think about and focus on the things you can control…. You cannot control your company’s future single handedly. So try not to sit there and worry and focus on moving yourself, your group, your team forward. That’s the best thing you can do.” – Liz Bronson
  • Things you can control:
    • Have a plan.
    • Have a resume that is up to date.
    • Ask people for recommendations on LinkedIn.

Mentioned in the Outro

• If you want to become a people leader someday, be mindful of the fact that you may have to execute a layoff as part of your role.

• More resources from Real Job Talk:

  • Surviving a Layoff
  • Starting Your New Job Search
  • Resources page with Must Have List template
  • Subscribe to Real Job Talk

• If you’re looking for more advice related to layoffs, check out:

  • Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)
  • Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)
  • Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)
    • Also check out the discussion of the most valuable knowledge framework with Erik Gross.

• If you’re searching for a job right now, check out these episodes:

  • Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes
  • Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search
  • Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1
  • Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2
  • Episode 164 – Secrets of a LinkedIn Expert with Louise Bunyan
  • For more episodes with the layoff tag on our site, check out this list.

• If you’ve been impacted by a layoff, reach out to Al and Leanne Elliott, hosts of the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast for a coaching session.

  • Book a call with Al and Leanne here.

Contact the Hosts

• The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
  • E-mail: [e-mail]
  • DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney
  • Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman
  • Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_