The hidden curriculum: The impact of inequities and systemic barriers on the mental health of students

Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories

Reggie Jones, LCSW, associate dean for Health and Wellness at Bryn Mawr College and co-host of the podcast “What the Health?!,” joins our hosts to discuss her work dealing with inequities and oppressive structures that negatively impact the mental health of first-generation, international, and LGBTQ+ students, and students of color. Reggie discusses the unique obstacles these students face as they pursue higher education learning opportunities and shares strategies for dismantling these barriers.

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Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Iveliz: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. This is your host, Iveliz Crespo and I'm joined by our co-host John Iino. Hi, John.

John: Hi, Iveliz.

Iveliz: And we have a very special guest for you today. We are joined by Reggie Jones. Hello, Reggie.

Reggie: Hi, how are you?

Iveliz: And for those that aren't familiar with, Reggie, Reggie is a licensed clinical social worker podcast host of “What the Health” and, and the Associate Dean for Health and Wellness at Bryn Mawr College, where she leads the psychological and medical services on campus with the goal of improving health and well being of students through new programs and departmental collaborations. In addition to this, Reggie also has time to maintain a private practice providing individuals, families and groups with psychotherapy. Reggie is also a consultant and provides consultation services in the areas of adolescent development, student health and wellness, mental health mentoring, specifically focusing on international and first generation students, implicit bias and intersectionality. Reggie. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Reggie: Thank you so much for having me Iveliz. I'm really excited to be here,

Iveliz: You know, Reggie, if I know that you mentioned that you listen to a few of our episodes to get a sense of, you know what to expect. And one of the things we always start with are powerful personal stories of our guest. And we do this because you know, in part, we want to highlight the amazing individuals that are out there doing this equity work that is very difficult and often times not rewarded enough, but also to get a sense of our lived experiences because as you know, they help shape who we are. Now before you were a dean, an advocate, a therapist, a professor and a champion for equity, you made the conscious decision to focus your career on adolescent development and student health and wellness. Can you give us a little bit of an explanation as to why you know what motivates you?

Reggie: Sure. Sure, I'd be happy to. So I think first of all, I myself was a first generation college student. My, my parents grew up in a Jim Crow South and so they didn't have access to like many educational opportunities. They had freedom dreams for my brother and I for greater opportunities, you know, around accessing education, social mobility and such. And so once we sort of migrated north to Philadelphia, you know, they were able to help me and my brother only so far, given their experience. And so we had to do a lot of things on our own. And that was really hard, it's hard to, it's hard to know what you don't know. So I think that one of the most important things is I want to be able to show up as the adult caring adult that I needed and my family needed when I was an adolescent, I think that is really important to me. I want to be that resourceful person for our young people and their families. And especially since the adolescent period in our lives is like a period of tremendous growth and challenges. And when I'm thinking about, you know, young people that I work with, there are moments of vulnerability as well as opportunities for building resilience. And I think about my own experience and their experiences that is often disrupted by like structural racism and discrimination, which is normalized and legitimized by behaviors and dynamics that typically advantage white people and produce a cumulative and and I think harmful chronic adverse outcomes for, for students of color. So it's important to me to be one of those caring adults for young people to help them navigate even mitigate some of those outcomes. And I would say my area of focus is particularly thinking about Black and Brown students and students who identify on the LGBTQ+ continuum.

Iveliz: And this is probably why I love this part of the podcast so much because I often find, you know, myself feeling inspired, I think this work can be really draining at times, particularly when you don't realize that you are surrounded by community of people, right? It can feel like you're the only one championing these issues, particularly on those rough and hard days. And I love your story about being that first generation student and being exactly what you need, right? What you needed at that time. Because often times, you know, people don't think about what it's like to be the first and it can be incredibly challenging to be the first, particularly when you're navigating an already complicated process and you have no one really to turn to. And so, you know, I, I commend you and I really am impressed with the work that you do and in particular your focus because, you know, as a first generation college student myself, I think to myself, what would my experience have looked like if I had someone like you shaping that experience or supporting that experience? And I think it would look a lot different, right than it did. And so, you know, I'm really moved by what you said and the work that you're doing.

John: Absolutely. And thank you for joining us today, Reggie and as Iveliz said, you know, this work that we do in particularly even I do in terms of championing for DE&I is very rewarding. But at the same time, it can be very challenging and frankly, emotionally draining. So, you know, in, in your own personal role, not in your professional role, but in your own personal role you mentioned earlier saying, you know, building resilience, right? So what do you do personally that continues to motivate you to champion working with Black and Brown folks, LGBT folks uh in particular on, on, on mental health challenges and, and other resiliency like you said, in your space? Where, where's, where's your motivation come from?

Reggie: So I want to say my motivation, I, I think it's, it's much more intrinsic. I think I've always cared deeply about equity and justice even as a kid. So like fairness, I was always attuned to like whether things were fair and, and would sort of point out sort of these gaps that I noticed where there was inequity. You know, I think at age 11, I sort of proclaimed myself a womanist after reading Alice Walker's, you know, ‘In Search of Our Mothers’ Gardens’. And for folks who may be curious about what a womanist is, is a black feminist or who cares about and is committed to the survival and wholeness of entire people. So that was really important to me and that application of, of thinking about fairness I think is what drives what I do. It reinforces this idea that I can't necessarily do it alone in terms of creating sort of the, you know, level playing field, but I can work with folks together to disrupt like inequities. And I think we've had some really important successes in the work that I've done with students around building those skills, protecting their mental health and well being. I would even say David and Goliath moments with the institution where we have been successful at it really sort of disrupting like oppressive structures or, and, and sometimes that disruption has really looked like greater awareness for colleagues who are, are, are white and suddenly become attuned to like the inequity that they just assumed oh, well, you know, everybody's got access to that or, you know, they don't ask for help because of blah, blah, blah. I think that's been important. I think the other thing that really motivates me is is recognizing that in a system like self determination has been so important historically to people of color, particularly in this country. And that can get confounded with our ability to be able to ask for help. And because there is this constant narrative of inferiority. And so I think I'm also really motivated to support students of color to really sort of disrupt that to sort of untangle sort of those two pieces and couple them so that they can then ask for what they need without feeling like they are somehow less than or weak and feel deserving of that and recognize that that is, that is connected to this, the doctrine of white supremacy and is not really about them specifically. So I think I'm really motivated and just trying to help to try to untangle sort of these, these points where, you know, we get caught up in sort of this repetition, uh reinforcing these uh narratives that don't, don't serve us, don't fit us and that are harmful.

John: That's so inspiring to me and, and certainly it really motivating and I just curious, kind of cause they think all of us and especially, you know, folks in our audience, I'm sure would be curious what gets you to bounce back on those down days? I mean, I think we all have those, those, those down days and so forth to get up off the floor and say I gotta, I gotta get off the floor here or maybe sometimes you just wallow in your, in your sorrows.

Reggie: I think it's a couple of things. One thing is there's a botanist who I love. Her name is Beronda Montgomery. And she talks about, she does a lot of work around mentoring. And one of the things that I have been able to integrate for myself is not seeking affirmation externally, but really cultivating internal affirmation. So I think that is such a powerful protective factor to some of the pushback that I get around doing the work and not internalizing some of the, the negative narrative about being a, a rabble rouser, a person who's never satisfied a person's always negative or, you know, I don't internalize that. I try to really sort of sort of ground myself and also knowing that like, and this is sort of cliche, but my mother grew up sharecropping like literally. So she grew up sharecropping on the plantation where probably my relatives had been held and enslaved. And so I, I really do believe and know that I am the dream that my, I'm like, what my ancestors dreamed. And so a lot of my, I guess strength comes from actually sort of relying on my ancestors. I want to say that, I mean, I've talked to them, they talk to me, I also believe in rest. And I am a really boundary person. And I would also say I have really good friends. I have a community of friends that help to edify me and nurture me and also hold me accountable. You know, like when I'm going like overboard and really hold me accountable around taking care of myself. I think that's really important. I would say that's the last thing I'll say is the very thing that I said to you about sort of like continuing to confront that idea of inferiority and weakness and asking for help is something that I continue to work on. And I really challenge myself to do that. And my friends hold me accountable to do that,

Iveliz: You know, and, and, and John and I are both nodding for the folks that can't obviously see us. We're both nodding because this these are things that you know, we consistently talk about, right? Is, is the need for all of these things. The need to have downtime the need to have a community of people, right? That, that help reinvigorate you and hold you accountable, right? Because sometimes we there is a slippery slope there between advocacy, right? And wanting to be an advocate and then making it your entire life, right? Which is is exhausting. And you know, you, you mentioned a lot of really great things and I want to just circle back, you talked a lot about the work that you do in disrupting these inequities and really dismantling, right, these oppressive structures on the university level. But you also talked about, right? There's, there's two parts to that. There's that dismantling these systemic inequalities that exist. But then there's that human aspect of working to support students and helping them navigate their own complex feelings that they feel about maybe being the first or you know what the pressure that means, right? Because you talked about your ancestors. And I think that that's a real big weight that a lot of us feel who are the first to do these things. And so I want to enlighten the audience a bit and kind of talk a little bit about those experiences and in particularly what are those unique obstacles that students of color and international students experience as they pursue higher learning opportunities and how do those barriers really impact their mental health and ultimately their entire college experience?

Reggie: Yeah, that's a great question. And it's something that I've actually, I think a lot about, of course I also presented on because it's something that I care about deeply. So the first thing I'll say is that for one of the big and I want to say, students of color, international students, the institutions themselves struggle with this. Institutions of higher education oftentimes are thought to be a place where you go to level the playing field. Like, you know, if you have, if you have access to education, then you have access to social mobility, greater resources, networks, connections. And so racism doesn't exist or discrimination doesn't exist. Those systemic structures don't matter because everybody's gonna get what they need. But we know that we don't live in a meritocracy and it doesn't work like that. So for students of color, I think for students of color and international students coming to an institution, institutions of higher education that already sort of feel like they are progressive. That is probably one of the biggest challenges because that assumes that there's no work to be done. And I think that we are finding that particularly in the last year where we've seen student strikes happen across the country around racial inequality on campuses. So I think that is the big barrier that institutions themselves have not grappled with the systemic and structural racism, like discrimination and oppression that occurs at their institutions because they think themselves progressive students come to campus. And I think being in a predominantly white environment especially can be really daunting. And for, I'll talk about international students and, and domestic students of color separately for students who have not gone to high schools that look like, let's say the the college or the university they're going to attend, it's like a culture shock and there can be lots of demands around assimilation and many students are unaware of like the hidden curriculum because they've not had access to that information before. So knowing how to navigate that landscape can be really challenging. For international students and they can talk about, I've heard them talk specifically about coming to America to go to an institution. One of the things they talk about is disillusionment with Western sort of like culture, resentment around sort of having to navigate this white black binary uh that is specific to like, you know, American racism and those things can add additional weight to that transition to college. So transition to college generally can be exciting but also really challenging, you know, in the top five things that are the most stressful things that you do in your life one of them is moving and so moving to college, that's a very stressful event. Students of color and international students also have to contend with these other factors that really sort of put challenges on them. Again, the piece around assimilation, students of color might experience and deal we have to deal with imposter syndrome, they might have to deal with stereotype threat that comes up for them. Hyper visibility and visibility invisibility which is difficult for students who are international students. There's am minority um stereotype that gets in the way, the yellow peril and that was exacerbated by COVID in the last two years with the pandemic. And so those can be like huge socio cultural challenges for our students who come to campus. Now, I want to say that some institutions are trying to do work around mitigating some of those challenges, but these institutions weren't built for international students and they weren't built for brown to black students. And so there's a lot that still needs to be dismantled to be able to make these places feel less hostile sometimes for these students and students. The intersection of sort of these challenges in their mental health. We know that statistically, there's lots of research that supports that Black and Brown students often experience heightened mental health problems at the intersections of dealing with racism and discrimination and structural barriers and their mental health. College students in general over the last 10 years, we've seen an increase in depression and anxiety at one time, depression was like sort of the largest number and anxiety has surpassed that. So you couple that with sort of general anxiety that's connected to particularly generation Z who has more awareness around mental health, sort of like issues may have had more services in high school because there may be less stigma associated with it and are coming to college, sort of having more awareness of themselves around their own mental health. And then you couple that with this transition and complicate the transition with these oppressive structures. And it's, it's kind of a perfect storm for students. So I know in the counseling service that many schools across the country, we're seeing an increased number of students who are are needing support. But one of the challenges to that is we're finding that many counseling services in universities and colleges across the country do not have many, many if any counselors of color or counselors who've had international experience or had themselves at one time been international students in their service. And students have found that this is a problem because while counselors who are white can be well intentioned, if there's a lack of awareness around your own bias and and racism, if you haven't engaged in anti racist, like increasing your own anti racist literacy, well intention can also have negative impacts on the clients. So students across the country have been asking for, for colleges to really look at more having to more diverse staff in their counseling services and their medical services so that they can be served and have access to resources that are meaningful.

John: Well, Reggie, there's so much there, so, so much to unpack and, and I'll just lead off some, some of my observations is that and you talk about, you know, the, the students that come to college, maybe they, they didn't come from, you know, the, the same environment or the international students that, you know, came from another country and having to assimilate or understand the hidden curriculum. And as I think about law firms, you do have folks that come to a big law firm or organization for the first time, that's, you know, predominantly white and having to navigate the same things. But, you know, for, for law students that are 2526 years old, maybe what a difference from a 17 year old or an 18 year old, that's just, you know, still, still growing. So that how, how, how acute that must be at the universities when you talk about increased depression anxiety. Certainly we see that in our industries as well. And one of the things you hit on was saying that, ok, and we need more people of color, we need people with international experiences and counseling offices to help with this. And so my question is now that we've identified some of the issues, one possible solution that institutions don't have enough resources to address by having counselors that understand the experiences or, or people of color or international students at some point themselves. But what are some of the other strategies or, you know, and that remedy is the wrong word? But what, what to address some of these acute concerns? What are it's in your programming that can specifically help these students?

Reggie: Yeah. So I think in our programming, I, I'll start sort of at the institutional level. It's increasing anti racist literacy and really holding people accountable and that is really important. So in my, I've said this at my, at Bryn Mawr and at Penn where I teach as well, that my goal is to create a culture so that people who are not doing the work, feel so uncomfortable, they leave and that's important. So I think increasing anti racist literacy, creating an environment where people recognize that we're all learning so that there can be some, there can be ruptures in those relationships where people might make mistakes, but there's accountability and accountability means being able to talk that through and, and work and work it out. It doesn't mean people are written off, but it does mean that if we're going to be in a relationship, we're going to figure out how to be in a relationship in a way to the state. Those I think are also really important skills to be modeling for students. Because if we can demonstrate that we're modeling that for students and doing that with students, then there's an opportunity for us to create a broad community. So it's not just sort of the faculty and staff need to do this work. I think we need to do this community. One of the things I talk about is the Dean of Health and wellness is the importance of community wellness. Like if one part of the community is not well and literate, then that's a problem for the other aspects of the community as well. It's also so there's importance that we are doing this work together. So it's not just the counseling services, it's also at the institutional and it goes from the president to the to the staff who are working in dining services and also doing our cleaning. So anti racist literacy, it's also identifying systemic barriers. So a great example of that is institutions, identifying names on buildings by people who are overtly racist that we continue to celebrate and recognizing that that is a barrier for students who are coming to campus because for them, you know, walking into this building and hearing this person being celebrated every year in some ways, that's a mixed message. It conflicts with what you say you are about. So then we need to think about how do we tell a broader story so that maybe this person donated a lot of money. But we can also talk about, you know, the complex sort of life that they led and this part of the their their narrative that we've decided to put under, you know, hide under the rug because we thought it was too unpleasant to actually reveal. I think that's important looking at structures in the institution that might disadvantage students, international students, students for whom English is not their first language students who are first generation. And how do we then develop policies and practices, programming and outreach so that we can then ensure that we are trying to create avenues for those students to have access. A great example of that is a course that I teach at Bryn Mawr, which is a meta cognition and digital storytelling class that I teach is for first generation students of color who come from economically disadvantaged communities. And in that class oftentimes there are international students, there are domestic students of color, but it really is about teaching them about the hidden curriculum. My parents, like I said, they didn't go to college. My father didn't graduate from high school. I had to figure out college pretty much a lot of it on my own and with my friends. This course really offers an opportunity to sort of help students understand. How do you read a journal? You know, what is the hidden curriculum? Why do you go to your professor's office hours? It's ok to do that. And the hidden curriculum is born out of a program that was at Georgetown that we've adopted at Bryn Mawr College. But it's creating access. And it's also recognizing how do we eradicate the barriers. And before we become defensive and I say we as an institution because I'm a part of the institution, but when students bring things to our attention before getting defensive about, you know, why we do what we do, it's also trying to in the community really hone skills around listening and listening with your whole being so that you can offer them an opportunity to critique with the students what's not working and then even brainstorm with them about what might support them so that we can actually eradicate that barrier. So I, I think those are the pieces and, and that's really important to my platform as the Dean of Health and Wellness is that we are all responsible for each other and that if one person is not well in the community, the community is not well.

Iveliz: You know, Reggie as you're talking, II I think about, you know, my experience and I shared earlier that I am also, you know, a first generation college student and I like your approach, right? And, and realizing that it's not just a counseling services issue. This is an institutional issue that needs to be addressed from the top all the way throughout the entire institution. I think about, you know, an experience I had in college where I had an interaction with a professor that I viewed as being influenced by race and class issues. And I remember going to and I had been taking advantage of the therapy that is provided for free at the university level because it was such a hard transition for me going from Camden, New Jersey where I was surrounded by nothing with people of color and then going into an institution where I was surrounded by nothing but white people from an entirely different class bracket than I, you know, even knew existed. And I remember having this conversation with the therapist and feeling like the response I got, which was, well, how do you know that this was about race and how, how I reacted to that was that I, I decided that, you know, if I'm going to have to keep explaining my lived experience, then what's the point in coming here because it's just reiterating and rebuilding on and, and, and, you know, influencing my trauma in a negative way, right? I'm not getting support. I'm getting asked to justify my own, you know, my own lived experience. And to me, you know, thinking about what you're talking about, I think you're right where it's not just the counseling services, right? It's on that professor as well and on the professor's boss and on the provost and on the deans to really think about this holistically and think about these experiences and how difficult they can be and take ownership of the fact that it's not just the experience, right? It's, it's the institution that we've created, that creates these negative experiences, right? Because I think oftentimes you can say, well, that's just their experience. And I think that really does take away from the fact that we've created these institutions built around white supremacist principles and those things really need to be addressed.

Reggie: Can I add something? Because I guess the other thing I would say is when I talk about the wellness and well being for the community, I also really talk about how racism doesn't just hurt students of color. It hurts white students as well. You know, it's a missed opportunity around learning about themselves. Opportunities for growth is a missed opportunity for the institutions to be able to really sort of innovate services and practices such that they're able to really meet students needs. So I really try to help people understand because I think that focus on just looking at the harm that is caused to students of color absolves people of like, you can be sort of the oh savior, you know, like, oh, woah is, you know, woah, they're really having a hard time, let me put on my savior cape and let me help them. And it's really not about that. Racism hurts all of us every single one of us, no matter what you look like, no matter how much you have, you're being harmed by racism in some way. And so that's, that means that we all together because no one person can solve this alone. No one group can solve this alone. We have to be committed to doing it together if we're going to eradicate some of these barriers and structures that actually harm all of us.

Iveliz: Yeah. And I love that because I think also too, it's about preparing people for the reality of what society is. Right. We're going to send these people off to a workforce that is going to be more and more diverse because we know what the demographics of society look like. And so if we're sending people off ill equipped to look internally right about their own biases or their own, you know, internalized racism, what are we doing? How are we actually preparing them right to go into these, these workplaces in the future?

Reggie: Workplaces in the future, be in relationships with friends, family partners. If we're not teaching people to be reflective, to be able to do perspective taking, to able to cultivate empathy and also to be curious and curious to know that like there's more to the story than what we've been told and to then do the work around learning more so that they can disrupt sort of this narrative of sort of like white supremacy, then they will be all prepared. And we, you're right, 2040 is coming and it's, you know, over time it's gonna look different. I won’t be here for that, but it's gonna look different and we want people to be prepared. We really do.

John: Reggie this is all so amazing and, and said, there's, there's so much here to impact, we could probably do this for another hour. Uh I just feel that there's so much to discuss here. So, uh one at a minimum, we want to have you back to our podcast to continue this discussion. For our listeners if they want to know more, how can they learn more from you all the things that you offer? Tell us how we can get in touch with you.

Reggie: Sure. So I would say they can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the easiest way to get a hold of me. And then the other thing I'll highlight is at Bryn Mawr College our Health and Wellness Center has a podcast What the Health and we are on Spotify and I believe we are on Apple as well. We, we just started as well, two episodes so far, but it really is a podcast that looks at health and wellness and well being in the entire community. So our first episode was really sort of talking about what was it like to return to campus, you know, with the COVID guidelines? And how do we think about sort of wellness in the context of the pandemic? Our most recent episode was really looking at for Black History Month. What does health and wellness mean to a couple of, there are a few students who we interviewed as well as one of our assistant deans to think about health and wellness. And that was particularly important because we had, had a, a really egregious racial incident that occurred on campus and that gave us an opportunity to interview them and for them to speak to really sort of how it was harmful for the entire community, but particularly for students of color. So yes, so people can listen to our podcast, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn. A website is forth coming in the future, but this has been great. And I guess the, the last thing I'll say is that, you know, one of the important things I think about, like my work is like thinking about taking care of plants and I go back to Doctor Beronda Montgomery. You know, when a plant is not doing well, we think about what, what do we need to do differently? You know, more light, more water. And that is really my approach to thinking about health and wellness at the college is like when students are not doing well or our community is not doing well. It's thinking about what do we need a tweak. It's a trauma informed sort of way of thinking about what's going on for you and how can I be helpful? Like what has happened to you? How can I help you? As opposed to saying you're at fault. And so, yeah, I just like to think about plants, Bryn Mawr is like a plant. And I'm one of the stewards that helped to water and, and, and cultivate its growth. So thank you. Nice talking with you, Iveliz and John.

Iveliz: And Reggie thank you so much. And I think that that's, you know, a beautiful way to end, right? It's what we can do to make a better world, right? Whether we're looking at higher ed, whether we're looking at workplaces, whether we're looking at any industry, you know, what, what can we do? And I, and I just really love that approach and thank you so much for joining us. And I really do hope that our listeners tune into Reggie's podcast. That is What the Health, which I'm a really big fan of and I can't wait to tune in myself.

Reggie: Thank you very much.

John: Thank you, Reggie.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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