120: In conversation with Sabiana Anandaraj: Lessons for a successful second innings

The Elephant in the Room

Show notes:

We all need our cheerleaders, the people, who stand by us through thick and thin, who inspire and bring us joy. The friends who are like family or better. I am lucky to have a few friends like that. One amongst them is @SabianaAnandaraj, whom I have known since my first job in PR over 30 years ago when I was a young mom to two toddlers in Mumbai, and she was the young, independent, go getter who introduced me to the workings of the agency and our mutual clients. We worked together for a short while before life got in the way and we drifted apart - she moved jobs, got married, had kids and I moved to the UK.

It was serendipity that we bumped into each other in early 2007 in Mumbai. The circumstances were wildly different her father was in very ill in hospital and mine was in and out of hospital (the same hospital) as he battled a rare form of Parkinson’s. Sadly, both our fathers passed away in 2007 much before their time. And @SabianaAnandaraj facilitated my unexpected move back to India for a stint to look after my mother. This move would have been impossible without @SabianaAnandaraj offering me a role in the agency she worked for at that time. And the ‘rest as they say is history.’ Today, we have a deeply, fulfilling friendship and our lives are deeply enmeshed (along with the rest of the gang) enmeshed together (in the best possible way).

Getting her on the podcast has been on the cards for a while, to share her amazing work trajectory and her foray into entrepreneurship. But, also to spotlight the reality, that women in their 50s are not done as yet, they don’t suddenly lose their ambition. The dominant narrative is about them being overlooked and written off but some of us are pushing back against the lazy ageist trope. Sabiana and I are both in our mid-50s (soon to be late), have no plans to retire and firmly believe the next decade may be our best as yet Also, I don’t think we are the kind of people who will take kindly to being overlooked! In this free flowing conversation we spoke about our mothers, being old, work, women in leadership, ageism, freedom in the 50s, entrepreneurship, learnings, cheerleaders, staying motivated and much more…..

We still need to talk about female friendships, menopause, empty nest, ambition, aspiration, work-life, second innings, third innings, fulfilment, and definitions of success……

Meanwhile, head to the podcast to hear more……

Episode transcript

Sudha: Hi Sabiana. I'm so, so happy to have you as a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast. We've been discussing this for the longest time, and finally, it has happened. It's good to see you here.

Sabiana: Thanks so much, Sudha. It has been a pleasure. I was really excited when you asked me to be a guest on your podcast. We know each other for decades, have had, n number of informal conversations. I think this is one of our first formal conversations on a platform like this. So, I'm really looking forward to it.

Sudha: Let's get started with the questions. I always ask all my guests. And even though I know you so well, and we've known each other for decades, please introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us a bit about yourself.

Sabiana: In the grand scheme of things, I am the third musketeer in the family lineup.

All the way from Bombay, I am today a 57 year old grown up. My one and only, what do I say? partner in crime is Trivikram. I've spawned two mini me's through him. One is Aria, who's my son, and Kaira, who's my daughter. My entrepreneurial journey started in the year 2020, I must say where I started my rollercoaster journey which I tell you that twist and turns could probably be something that you could compare with a Indian, Bollywood, blockbuster. But after two years now, finally I've settled down and I'm really enjoying the entrepreneurial journey.

Sudha: So, you're enjoying the ride, so to speak.

Sabiana: Yes, that's right.

Sudha: We've discussed this informally a lot of times, and we speak about it. You know, when our parents were in their 40s and 50s, we thought they were really old, but like you just admitted on the podcast that you're 57, and I'm 57, I don't feel very old. Do you feel old?

Sabiana: I don't actually you know, but we must understand that the times are very different Sudha. They came from a time where there was so many limitations, right? I mean, look at the job scene then, look at the job scene now, look at the exposure we have as compared to the exposure they had.

They always looked for government jobs where there was work life balance. Here we are looking at, you know, raring to go even at 57. So, I think it is the times that really defined how you felt. Given the day and age that we are in today. I don't think we feel old because there is so much opportunity that I don't feel I've come to the end of that opportunity, which probably they would have, you know, at 58, they are retired, they worked at government organizations, lived in joint families. I think in their heads, life, had to come to a grinding halt from a professional point at 58.

At 57, I mean, you know, two years ago I just started, being an entrepreneur, a new twist in my career. So, no, I don't feel old at all to answer your question.

Sudha: Yeah, I mean, my mum was 42 when I had my oldest daughter, that is Asmita. And of course, my children show no signs of getting married or settling. And as you said, times are different. And the weight that they felt, I think it was those times where they got married early, had children early, did everything sort of at an accelerated pace and then waited. And I think even the lifespan used to be smaller. We now live longer and healthier than I think they did.

Coming to something that I believe is very true. Do you think people view women differently after a certain age? Personally, , of course, and professionally.

Sabiana: Sudha, I've had different experiences. I think generally speaking, yes, they do. Again, it depends on the times that we are talking about. Professionals our age at that time would be looked at very differently, treated very differently, perceived very differently, judged very differently. Over the years, I think that gap has been bridged to a large extent only for the reason that women have started playing different roles.

In the past, women were playing more housewives and not really sitting in boardrooms. Today you see women are in boardrooms as well. They've broken all glass ceilings. So they are viewed differently, but that gap has been bridged over time. There's nothing that a man can do that a woman can't do.

And I think over time, they've realised that we play a role at home. We look after their parents, our parents, our children, the home, and a successful career as well. So I look at it really differently because my experience has been very, very different. I've worked for organisations, Sudha, where the senior leadership team were all men and I probably was the only woman. But nobody really made me feel that I was the only woman. They gave me equal rights to speak up and so on and so forth.

But I think generally speaking, it has been a struggle. When I speak to the other womenfolk, it has been a struggle for them to get their foot in the door, for them to really get things moving because men, I can't generalise, but there are men who are also very insecure about a woman taking over their seat, which they probably had for years, right? So then all those nuances one does have to face being a woman, but I think slowly things are changing.

Sudha: Yeah. So this is the impact in the workplace. And I think this conversation that we are having, some of it is we are reviewing the journey that we have come on and that journey has not always been privileged, right? We've all struggled through different sorts of, what do you say, exclusions to come where we are today, and we are in a position of privilege.

And I see from the kind of person that you are, Sabiana, I think a lot of women lack that confidence and that clarity and the courage to be able to work to their potential. And I think you have been singularly very focused on that part and you've been, no, I wouldn't say nobody is blessed with that courage, I think you've given yourself that courage, right?

And you've spoken about the impact in the workplace. Are there any specific incidences, you don't have to name your employers, but are there some specific incidences that you can of think of where clearly, you know, the current people in power do not want you to step up or take your rightful position? Have you experienced that?

Sabiana: Yeah. Because the organisations that I've worked with in the past were more male, less female. So I feel it was more male, but it's not that you don't find it with women as well. But coming to your question about whether I felt like that, yes. Particularly in one organisation, which was a very male-dominated industry.

I came in, in a leadership role and, like I normally approach my career or my new job, I tend to understand the organisation, understand the colleagues that I need to work with. I need to get a buy-in, very important for me to get a buy-in from the people I work with, junior, senior, whoever.

So, when I was approaching them one-on-one because it was a male industry in particular—it was the telecom industry, probably you'll guess the organisation—they looked at me with zillions of question marks, so what are you going to come and do? What are you going to really tell us? But shift to another industry which had an equal number of men and women, and it was the same question marks on their faces, you know, I mean, how can you come and tell us what to do in an industry that you are not even remotely connected with? When you shift jobs, you shift industries, and you learn on the job. But I think what helped me overcome all that is one, of course, the belief in yourself to understand what you're there for, you have the conviction in the value that you bring to the organisation. And when you engage with these people, it is extremely important to get that surfaced in conversations.

For example, you understand your business, but I understand your business and how to run it, you understand my point. I think how you engage with people and the personality that you sometimes need to take on has to outshine your position at that point in time; it plays a very important role.

The second thing I did was, when I met them one-on-one, of course, I got this pushback. So then I changed strategy and said, okay, fine, get them all into one room. I realised people are far more fierce and wear their bully caps when you are engaging with them one-on-one. They mellow down when you put them all in one room. So that was my strategy, and I said, okay, and I acknowledged all the input that I got. So again, my learnings were, focus on the positives, ignore the negatives, don't give it too much importance. When they were all in one room, acknowledged all the help and all the support, and ignore the hard time they gave me.

The point I'm trying to make Sudha, is it's never a straight-jacketed approach. You've got to learn on the job, you need to work around, and it's never a customised approach, right? Some industries work very, very differently. But I think it is how quick you are in identifying those loopholes and how quickly you work around them. It's not easy, but it's not impossible.

Sudha: There are two things that come to my mind because I know you. One is that we are also from that generation where we believe that we almost work in our workplaces as if we are owners and not as workers. The second thing is what you said very clearly is that when you move into an industry at a certain level, you are taking your learnings, and you can re-engineer your skills to any industry because you have leadership skills. And the third thing is that you have to be able to adapt very quickly, think on your feet, adapt, and understand the environment rather than just being like straight-jacketed, like you said.

I spent a large part of my forties in India, coming back to India to work. And I thought when I was in my forties, I thought, okay, I'm really old now, but I began to enjoy it a lot, the forties, and it is definitely a function of having all of you around me that helped me to really enjoy that. But I believe that the forties are really a brilliant decade for women to be in. You suddenly discover, you can speak actually, you can say no, you can do this, you can do that. And the fifties, of course, were dramatically different for me; they've been dramatically different.

So how have the fifties treated you and has it been very different from your forties? Are you thinking about things differently? And how are you as an individual, you know, so your personal, professional...

Sabiana: Of course, it is radically different, Sudha. When I was 40, I was 10 years less in experience, 10 years younger. Now I'm 10 years more intelligent. I have 10 years more exposure, more experience.

So, of course, it is very, very different. But the way I look at it is that 40 is when I would say my journey as a senior professional began. Before that, I was just a junior, learning, grasping, trying to support a team and all of that. But at 40, I suddenly felt this responsibility of teaching, of helping my team grow, sharing all my experiences and all my learnings with them. And that satisfaction that you get is immense.

So for me, my journey at 40 was fantastic because here now, you know, is this excitement of, okay, now I have so many more people I'm responsible for. I need to look at numbers, I need to look at growth, I need to make sure I'm contributing to the growth of the organisation and also take the brickbats, right?

At 50, you feel you've achieved because it's been 10 years, it's been a whole decade and that you've achieved a lot, and then you've been there, done that, and now suddenly you want to start a new chapter altogether. And I think that's where I am currently. At 50, actually, Sudha, I moved from a profession which was the only thing I knew, which is communications. And at 50, I joined a law firm. The only time I worked with lawyers was, you know, working with the GC at a crisis or when there was some key message that one needed to give out.

And here at 50, I joined a firm where they were expecting me to run the operations of the firm. For me, it was exciting; it was scary. I had to use all the experience that I had, the learnings, and at the same time, I had to also tell myself to unlearn and relearn. And I do that all the time, even till today. I'm 57, but I do that all the time because things are never static; things keep changing, they keep evolving. I mean, my ideas would have been so great once upon a time, could be totally obsolete today. So, my thing is unlearn, relearn, unlearn, relearn.

So, my journey keeps going on, and the reason I enjoy my journey is because I keep innovating and innovating myself in a new environment because the environment is never the same. I'm 40, then 50, now I'll be 60—the environment changes. If I do not evolve, if I do not bring in new ways of working and adapting, it's not going to work for me. So I hope I've answered your question, Sudha.

Sudha: Yes, you definitely have. I think it was a big challenge that you undertook when you decided to become the COO at Trilegal, which is the third-largest law firm in India. And that's been an amazing journey you have the experience, the knowledge, the intent, and the energyI’d say you’re one of the most energetic people that I know in this world, one of the most hardworking and energetic people that I know.

I totally agree that you have to not just bring all of that learning and experience. You have to learn constantly and evolve.

So, let's talk about your entrepreneurial journey. I think a lot of us jumped on that wagon during COVID and post-COVID. Tell us a bit more about your entrepreneurial journey. What prompted you to embark on this journey? Because you were doing very well. I don’t know whether it was something that you’d been thinking about for long and then took the jump, or it was one fine day you decided, “Oh, enough, now I need to do this for myself.”

Sabiana: It was not thoughtful at all. So, it happened—like I told you, the mystical year of 2021—I got an opportunity to work for a firm in Noida. I live in Gurgaon, so I had to travel from Gurgaon to Delhi to Noida. As long as it was locked down, it was fine. I am a person who likes working in an office. I'm a very people-oriented person. I like interacting; I like the chaos of the office, and I can't work from home. So I used to go to the office. There were hardly anybody in the office during that time because, you know, we had the flexibility of working from home. But given that I had just joined this organisation, I wanted to learn and understand the culture of the organisation, which is extremely important for my success, so I did. But unfortunately, what happened was when the lockdown was lifted, I realised I was spending way too much time in travel. And you know me better than anybody, Sudha; I'm a very impatient person. Very, very impatient. If I don't see the time that I have put to good use, I start getting the heebie-jeebies. And I just felt, you know, that time in the car from here to there, two hours, sometimes two and a half hours one way, therefore five hours a day, it was a waste of time.

And that gave me the reason to say, no, I can't do this anymore. But I didn't take too much time because I knew by then I'd been there, done that. I was 56 and something, and I said, let me start something on my own. And what I did was, of course, spoke to a lot of people. People who had only good wishes for me from a professional point of view. I started speaking to them and said, you know, this is where I am currently, and I don't know what to do. Spoke to a lot of people, got a lot of ideas, and then I sat on my own and I said, this is what I want to do. And I went on to creating Curate.

So, Curate is a...