Cool Tools Show Podcast Episode 235: Matt Mullenweg, Co-Founder of WordPress

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Cool Tools Show Podcast Episode 235: Matt Mullenweg July 2020 Visit Cool-tools.org for shownotes Mark: Welcome to the Cool Tools Show. I'm Mark Frauenfelder, editor-in-chief of Cool Tools, a website of tool recommendations written by our readers. You can find us at cool-tools.org. I'm joined by my cohost, Kevin Kelly, founder of Cool Tools. Hey, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, it's great to be here. Mark: In each episode of the Cool Tools Show, Kevin and I talk to a guest about some of his or her favorite uncommon and uncommonly good tools they think others should know about. Our guest this week is Matt Mullenweg, co-founder of the open source publishing platform, WordPress, which now powers over 37% of all sites on the web. He's the founder and CEO of Automattic, the company behind wordpress.com. WooCommerce, Tumblr and Jetpack. Matt is originally from Houston, Texas, where he attended The High School for the Performing and Visual Arts and studied jazz saxophone. He currently splits his time between Houston, New York and San Francisco. I'm so glad to be talking to the person who, not only powers cool tools, but my other website, Boing Boing. Thank you so much, Matt. How are you doing now? Matt: I'm doing pretty well, and really glad to be talking to y'all. Longtime fans. Kevin: Yeah, and Matt, it's so good to hear your voice again. We've done a walk together and I'm really looking forward to hearing about some of your favorite tools. Mark: Yes. So, why don't you start by telling us about Stream Like a CEO? Matt: Oh. Well, I found myself doing a lot more of these, essentially, public presentations, and it could be for press or other companies where I'd be talking to five or 6,000 people, in addition to my own company. And so, I'd done some minor investments in a nice Logitech webcam and things like that before, but I ended up deciding like, "Well, how do you max this out?" I was inspired a little bit by when Bill Gates was on Trevor Noah, and Trevor Noah's obviously, that's his job to be on TV and he normally looks fantastic, but he looked like he was on a normal webcam and Bill Gates looked like he was in a studio. I was like, "Oh, how does that work?" Because I know Bill Gates is probably social isolating and everything. So, and I'm hooking up a nice camera to a HDMI capture device that turns any HDMI input into a webcam. Kevin: That capture device that does is... What's it called? Cam Link or something? Matt: I use the Elgato Cam Link 4K. Kevin: Right, Cam Link. Right, it looks like a USB-size device that has a HDMI, your kind of TV kind of HDMI cable on one side and then a USB plug on the other, is that right? Matt: Yeah, and it just shows up as a webcam and audio can go through it too, which is pretty neat. Kevin: Right, right. So, the idea is you take a digital camera that has a HDMI output, and then you can link it up, that digital camera, to your computer. So now, instead of having a webcam, you have a hi-res camera. Matt: Exactly. Mark: Oh, that's nice. I have a Logitech, a pretty nice one that does HD and stuff, but it is nowhere near my little HD handheld camera. Kevin: Right. Matt: You're never going to match just the physics of the optics there. Now that said, there are some hacks to use phone cameras, which of course, have so much amazing processing and everything else. So, we'll see where that goes. It feels like if in a $100 Android phone, you can put a really decent camera, I don't know why these $300 web cams are slacking so much. Kevin: Right? So, there are people who do the same thing with a phone. So, they're saying the recent iPhones or other phones, their cameras are actually much better than your webcam. And so, you could use your phone hooked up to your computer like a webcam. And so, there are some... I will call them hacks, but there are some ways to do that as well, right? Matt: Sorry, if I called it a hack. I didn't mean to insult these systems. Kevin: No, no, no. I was calling it a hack. I was calling it a hack. Mark: Yeah, me too. Matt: So, over time, all of this gets replaced by software, right? So, already in Skype, you can blur out your background give like a bouquet effect and other things. We'll have a time when a really fancy microphone or camera makes a difference. But over time you see where like the Snap Camera, which is a utility you can run on your computer to filter your webcam through Snap filters, where that's just going to replace everything that right now you get a better quality out of. Kevin: So, there was one other hack that is a pretty cool one to do that you have in your little article on Stream Like a CEO, which is to use what the high-end folks use, which is basically a teleprompter. The problem that that's trying to fix is the fact that we humans are really wired to detect whether someone's really looking at you or not. Matt: Eye contact. Kevin: That eye contact is very, very powerful. And it often is something you don't have when you're Zooming or telecasting because you're looking at the screen, you're looking at the other people, you're looking at who you're talking to. You're not looking at the camera. So, you want to be able to converge the camera and where you're looking at together, and there's a hack to do that, which they've done for a long time, which is a half-silvered mirror. So, what's your solution to this Matt. Matt: Yeah, exactly what you described. I wanted to be able to look people in their eye when I was talking to them. So, I'd used teleprompters for text before, if I was on some random show, but I thought, "Well, why can't... " I heard of ones you can use with a phone or iPad. I might've even gotten the phone one, heard about it from you, Kevin. I thought, "Well, what if I just put the Zoom screen on there, so someone's face was what I was looking at?" And it works pretty well actually. I'm not going to endorse any particular brand. I would say any teleprompter is fine or any one-way mirror. And then I got some random USB-C monitor that now I just mirror things to. And so, if I was talking to someone on video, I would just move them to where the bottom of my main screen is. And then I see them reversed and flipped on the teleprompter. Kevin: So, the way the teleprompter works is that you have a half-silvered piece of glass that's at a 45 degree angle and the camera is behind it looking right through the glass and filming you. And then you are looking at the camera lens, but instead of seeing the lens, you see the reflection of a horizontal tablet that would have your Zoom counterpart, the screen or the face. And so, it looks like that image of the person is hovering right in front of the lens. So, your eyes are actually looking directly into the lens, but you're looking at the person you're talking to. And it's... Yeah. Matt: I've been told for the people on the other side, it's almost a little unnerving because both with the really great okay effect of like, "Oh, it feels like you're in a studio." So, I've stopped using the setup for just normal hangouts. I'm trying to only use it for presentations. And it's not perfect. It is a bit dimmer with the reflection, and as I discovered on a board meeting, Wednesday, when I did decide to use this, because everything's flipped, you can't really see a board deck or presentation. So, I found myself being turned to the side quite a bit more than I would if it was just a webcam on top of my monitor to read the slides. Kevin: You obviously need some software just to do the flipping. So, I use a teleprompter, a little inexpensive version, to record videos and it fits over my... I have a Panasonic LUMIX camera, and it fits onto the rings that screw onto the front of the lens. And it takes my phone as a screen, so it's much smaller and you have to be closer to read it. I was using it to actually read things, but it does allow you to flip because you actually have to read text. So, it has that mirror function built into the software. And I think that would be really important to do, because otherwise, as you said, you can't read slide or anything else. Matt: Yeah. If you Google Stream Like a CEO, I put it all out there. And the exact setup I used was like 9k, but honestly I think for about- Kevin: Wait, 9k. What do you mean 9k? Matt: $9,000. Kevin: Oh, okay. Really? Mark: Okay. So, you can spend a- Matt: That all comes from the lens and I have these custom in-ear monitors, but you don't need any of that stuff to be honest. So, I think that for about somewhere between $1,500 to $2,000, assuming you had to buy all the equipment from scratch, didn't have a extra camera you could use or something, you can create something that looks just as good as Bill Gates, which is pretty neat. Mark: That's cool. Kevin: Right, right. Yeah, and as you said, a lot of this should be in software, but even the part that's not in software should be a commodity item soon enough, in terms of, as people figure out how to do this cheaply and in scale, scale it up. I would definitely have one. Right now, my solution is pretty low-rent, which I have a webcam, which is not very good quality, but I have the webcam mounted to hang in the center of my monitor. Matt: I thought about doing that. How did you hang it? Mark: That's cool. Kevin: I just built a little piece of some metal. I just made a bracket, and I have it so it can swing in. So, it swings in and hangs right in front of my monitor, and I just manipulate the Zoom screen so that it's a couple degrees off from the face. So, I'm two or three degrees off and it's close enough for most people. Mark: Yeah, that's cool. Now, I remember reading some research, old research about video conferencing, and they found that the most important... Having great quality audio and not so great video is far superior than bad audio and great video. The first thing to nail down is the audio, then you can start thinking about the video quality. Kevin: Right, right. I think Mark and you, we have headsets on right now, right? Mark? Mark: Yeah. Well, I'm actually using my- Kevin: Boom? Mark: My microphone, my little... I can't even remember the name of it now. Kevin: Yeti? Is it a Yeti? Mark: It's an AT-210, I forget the name of them. It's not a Yeti, but it's something I paid a couple hundred dollars for, and then it has a monitor jack that I can plug into to it. So, I'm just wearing some ear buds to hear exactly what my microphone is picking up, and it makes all the difference. Kevin: And Matt, you use a headset as well? Matt: Yeah. For a fancy podcast like this, I break out the podcasting setup, which I do a Shure SM7B. But what's actually the first thing, and actually really the only thing we buy for every new employee at Automattic is there's this... Sennheiser makes these headsets, I think, designed for call centers and stuff. And they're just little USB ones, so you plug them in, and they are so good at taking out all the background sound yet still having really high fidelity. Kevin: What's it called? It sounds like a Cool Tools tool to recommend. So, it's a Sennheiser something or other? Matt: Yeah, so for about 40 or 50 bucks, you can get the Sennheiser SC 30, and that has a one-ear version. They make a two-ear version where you have ear pads on both sides, I think, called the SC 60. And I've tried the Sennheisers, they make ones that go up to a couple hundred dollars. The cheap ones sound just as good or better than the expensive ones. So, it's actually kind of neat that something that costs a little less is a really comfortable. And it's super light, it's pretty sturdy. I have broken them over the years, from stuffing them in my backpack or something, but it's so inexpensive and I get so much utility out of it. I don't mind buying one every year or two. Kevin: Right. And so, this is highly recommended for anybody doing a Zoom call is wear one of these, and as Mark says, you'll instantly be two times as present because you'll have really good audio. Matt: Yeah. So, much better than using the internal microphone on your laptop. Kevin: Right. Right. Right. Matt: Although, on the latest MacBooks, the 16-inch they've gotten pretty good at... I don't know if you've listened to recordings from that- Mark: No, I haven't. Matt: ... but they've actually used the multi mics and some noise canceling, essentially some smarts to create something that I would say is better than what most people use. Mark: Wow. Like you said, the software is going to like take care of a lot of that. Kevin: Computational audio. So, Matt, are there some other tools that you find yourself using a lot or talking about or recommending to others? Things that you would find indispensable and use every day? Matt: Ah, so many. It's interesting because normally I publish something every year called What's in My Bag, where because I traveled actually 500,000 miles last year of flights. So, I got pretty dialed in on what was in the bag. But of course we've all been home, and actually, I went to my mom's house the other day and I took my backpack and I didn't have like, the cables I needed, which for me is life-threatening to not have the proper cable. But I know for the purpose of the show, I'll say a few more. One is a RAVPower 90-watt two-port wall charger. So, this is a USB-C charger that has two ports on it, and it can do up to 90 Watts. So, it can charge actually one of the bigger MacBooks. Mark: Oh, that's great. Matt: It's smaller. Even though it has two ports, it's smaller and lighter than the one that came with your MacBook because it uses this new technology called gallium nitride, which essentially allows for less heat to be generated while still pushing a lot of power through it. And I found this one's really neat. It has one of these plugs that collapses, so it kind of folds into it. And it's a small and heavy little thing, but it's much lighter than most of the built-in laptop ones. And you can charge two things at once, which is really nice. Kevin: Yeah. I am this ultra light packer and backpacker and traveler, but one of the things I did is I made my own squid using a little bit lighter cords like lamp cord that have USB and plugs on it that I solder together. Because I needed so many battery chargers and camera battery charging. If I had a drone, all the things. And so, this thing you just mentioned, the RAV would be pretty cool because you need a lot of USB power. Matt: And I'm looking forward to the day where everything's USB-C. USB-C has definitely made some of the biggest difference in my electronic life of the past few years, so I'm excited about it. Mark: I also heard that the iPhone 13 from the advanced drawings that have been sneaked out, look like they're going to switch over from Lightning to USB-C, which would be amazing. Matt: Yeah, and you can get these little adapters that just go in USB-C and turn it into Lightning. I usually carry a few of those around. It's just nice to be able to turn it into USB-C. USB-C can become your main cable, and then you can just put adapters on the end. It wasn't one of my cool tools, but that is called the Stouchi iOS adapter, S-T-O-U-C-H-I. Kevin: For the RAVPower one you recommend the 90-watt. They have a 60-watt as well, but- Matt: Not enough. Kevin: Not enough. Yeah, especially if you're doing one of the larger MacBook Pros, you're probably going to need that. Mark: And one of the things, by the way, for our listeners, that Matt's organization has been a pioneer in, is in remote working. Running a very large, relatively large company, where, I don't know, 100%, 90%, 99% of the employees are remote, not working at headquarters. So, you have been living the life that many people are now just got a small taste of. Are there other tools that you have discovered over the years that you would find useful in trying to do this new way of working? Matt: I talk about the hierarchy a lot, which is usually internet, so you want a good internet connection and router, audio then lighting. So, just a lamp makes a huge difference. Even a bad webcam looks better with a good light. And then finally you can get into all the video stuff that we talked about earlier. So, that's usually the hierarchy we talk about. But the thing that actually has been sort of most game changing for me in this lockdown, in working from home, was I bought a hammock on Amazon. It's Vivere, V-I-V-E-R-E, and probably $100-and-something. And I am now spending at least an hour a day in it, which has been really, really nice. It's not too hot in Houston yet, and the mosquitoes aren't too bad during the day. So, it's been nice to be able to read a lot of emails or do some work on a iPad or a phone from the hammock and just nice to not be at the desk for a little bit. Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. So, there's sitting desk, standing desk and horizontal desk, the hammock. Coincidentally, I'm not sure if we're going to run these in the same order that we're recording it, but just the previous guest in this podcast was raving about the very same hammock that he had just recently gotten. So, it might be a thing. Mark: We just were talking to him right before we started talking to you, Matt, and he was talking about the same hammock. Matt: That's awesome. Kevin: Yeah. Before we... Some of this stuff is hardware, but there's also a couple of software. We were talking about how software will replace a lot of these things. You also have some software packages or programs or subscriptions that either you use for yourself or your company uses. Some that we're all familiar with these days like Zoom and maybe even Slack, but you have a couple others here that may not be as well known. Basecamp for project management. Meeting scheduler, Doodle is something we have recommended on Recomendo. Calendly is another one. Do you have anything to say about these Basecamp or meeting schedulers, other pieces of software that you would recommend people who work remotely adopt? Matt: I think every organization should have a really good internal blog, private blog. I obviously have some software I'd recommend for that with WordPress, but we use actually a free theme called P2, which turns your internal blog or any blog really into kind of a real-time system. So, when [crosstalk 00:20:07] shows up, Kevin: Wait, wait, wait. It turns your blog into a real-time system, I don't know what that means. Matt: Sure. So, it sort of puts a posting box on the homepage, so anyone who's a logged in user can see a posting box right on the home page. You don't have to visit a separate admin. And then it has fully threaded comments and posts also on the home page. And by real time, if a new comment or post comes in, it'll actually pop up on your screen without you having to reload. So, it's great for asynchronous conversations that happen in a more... We use it instead of email actually, and it's been definitely the thing that's allowed us to scale to now 1,200 people. Kevin: But do you use Slack? We use Slack. I feel like Slack might be a net negative to our productivity, just because it's so interrupt driven. And I do believe in the importance of lack of interruptions for deep or creative work. Mark: We use Slack with Cool Tools, but there's only three of us. And so, it isn't really distracting. I think maybe we have two or three things a day and it's usually stuff that is important to know about. Kevin: Do you use Slack with Boing Boing? Mark: We don't actually. For some reason we really don't need to communicate that much. We do text messaging mainly is the main way we do it. Text messaging and email. I don't know why, but I think that for Cool Tools, Slack has been really good. Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Matt: For small groups like that, I mostly use Telegram now. I just love the- Kevin: Telegram. I'm not familiar with Telegram. Matt: It's kind of like a WhatsApp competitor. Kevin: Okay. Why wouldn't you use WhatsApp instead of Telegram? Matt: So, what I like about Telegram is it always works even if I'm on terrible bandwidth. It just has some sort of magical thing where everything always gets through, and it's natively multi-device. So, I can be signed in on my iPad, my phone, my computer, multiple computers, all at the same time, which is really handy. Mark: WhatsApp does that too. Matt: You can only be assigned into one other thing. So, it's your phone plus something else. Mark: You mean just two things at once. Matt: Yeah. And your phone has to be connected. So, let's say you're on a plane, your phone needs to be connected. Basically, what they're doing is the other client is almost like a client of your client. Oh, because of the way they work. Kevin: That's in WhatsApp, and in Telegram you don't have a constriction. Matt: Each client is its own node, so you can have multiple ones going. So, when I'm on a plane, if I ever do that again, usually I just buy WiFi for my computer. I don't want to have to buy it for my phone and my computer. Yeah, I like also, the scheduling messages is something that I miss and wish Slack had. Mark: That's cool. Matt: Especially as a CEO, I find that I'm working all the time, but if I send someone a message at 9:00 PM on Friday, even if I say, "This is not urgent, don't reply until Monday," or something like that, they feel the pressure. If they see it, it kind of takes them out. So, on TElegram- Kevin: Oh, so you can post, schedule it for Monday morning. Mark: That's neat. Matt: Yeah. So, actually, usually about 9:00 AM, people will get a lot of scheduled messages from me that have come from the previous, probably 12 to 14 hours where I was just trying not to send it. And that way also, if I send a message, if there were a true emergency, I would want the message to be noticed. So, by keeping things mostly to the day and anything that's not an emergency not happening at night, it kind of makes it more important. Kevin: Telegram, I'll have to look... That's really new to me. That's fantastic. Matt: Can I say two free tools for macOS? Kevin: Yeah. Mark: For sure. Kevin: So, these are two ones that I've come across recently and just find they make my day a little bit better. One's called Meeter, M-E-E-T-E-R, and all it does is take... If there is an appointment in your calendar that has a Zoom link or a Google Meets link or anything like that, and it makes it one-click easy to join it, and gives you a little notification. So, you're not having to navigate through your calendar. Mark: So, it's like a toolbar pull-down thing. Matt: Exactly. So, it runs in your toolbar. The other one also runs in your toolbar. It's called Hand Mirror and all it does is shows you what's on your webcam. So, if you want to check your hair or just make sure there's not something... If there's something behind you, that it's not messy, you can just check Hand Mirror. Mark: Or salad in your teeth. Yeah. That's a good one. I have Hand Mirror also. I really like that. Kevin: So talking about the toolbar on the macOS, do you know about there? Matt: No, what's that? Kevin: There is like a world clock that's tied to people rather than places. Matt: Oh, so everyone's logged in and if they move around it updates. Kevin: Yes, you can. If other people are using There and they change locations, it will show that, but you also can look up by people, like Craig [Mon 00:25:13]. So, I'll look up Craig and it says, "Okay, it's 6:56 for Craig." Matt: Oh, that's so cool. Kevin: Yeah, and it's up in the toolbar, or my speaker agent here, Mel. Okay, so it's 5:56 PM for Mel. So, you can do places, but the real innovation is that you have it by person and if they are also There clients and they choose to, it will reflect if they change locations automatically. Matt: That's pretty neat. P2 has a widget for that, so our internal blogging system based on browser time will show the time of everyone who's a member of the team. So, that's the one I'm- Mark: That's really nice. That's good. I have a good, a toolbar one. It's called Tyke, T-Y-K-E. And all it is, is a ASCII, non-proportional font, mini text editor that you can just like dump text in, change it around a little bit and then copy and paste it into anything that you want. And I find it really convenient to... Just kind of as a parking spot for text that I need to hold for a little while, or do a little bit of work on and then pop somewhere else. It's so good. And it just does that one little thing and that's all it does. Andrew Torrez created it. Kevin: It's like a clipboard? It's being parked in a clipboard basically? Mark: Yeah. It's a little place where you can actually... Yeah, it's like a clipboard, and you can see the text and work with it. And it's just pure text, no images or font attributes or anything like that. Matt: That's really nice as well, because now when you copy and paste, sometimes you don't want to bring all the formatting with you. Mark: Right. That's one of the big benefits of it. Kevin: Right. There was a recent, for me, a recent Recomendo, which was if you hit the control in addition to the Cmd + V, but Shift + Cmd + V, it removes the formatting when you paste it. Mark: Yeah, that really works well too. Kevin: It's like, I wish I'd known that 15 years ago, 20 years ago. Mark: I know. Yeah. It's crazy. Kevin: Yeah. Mark: That's a really good one. The other thing that I found really useful when I'm doing any kind of writing, like if I'm about to post something to Boing Boing or anything, is I just highlight the text, right click it, and then from the contextual menu, say speech or speak it or whatever, and just listen to it. And then that way I can catch typos or grammatical errors much better than I can by reading it. You hear it when there's a problem and, that's something Claudia recommended. Kevin: Yeah, but I didn't realize you could do that while it was in the clipboard, basically. Mark: Yeah. Well, you could do it in a blog post before you publish it, or I do it in Tyke a lot of times. It doesn't work in Google Docs for some reason, which is super annoying, but most other applications it will work in. Matt: I love that. That's so nice. Mark: Yeah. Kevin: So, Matt, you're very prolific in writing about these tools for remote working. You have a doc that you sent us that maybe we can share distributed blog tools, I guess, tools and gear. Is this something you keep updated? Matt: I have been, yeah. It's been a little challenging because so much stuff is sold out because of the pandemic. Everyone's working from home at once, and so, they're buying stuff. So, I've been constantly updating it both to... I test a lot of things. So, I'll buy 20 headsets and then test each one and see how they sound. And then, yeah, so I am keeping it updated. So, if you check out distributed.blog. Kevin: And you have things like your recommendation of a standing desk or standing desk mat and things like that beyond even what we've talked about. So, yeah, I would suggest people if they're interested in working remotely, working from home, even more than we have been check out Matt's reviews of tools and gear. Mark: It's really nice. Matt, what's the WordPress theme that you use for distributed.blog? Matt: Ooh, that's a custom theme, but if you wanted it, I could totally send it to you. Mark: It's so clean. I love it. Matt: Thank you. For my site, ma.tt I'm just using the latest default theme, which is called 2020. Mark: Oh, okay. Matt: We started actually in 2010 and we started doing new default theme every year. And it had been such a pain in the butt to get a new default theme. I thought if we named it by the year, we'd be really embarrassed if we missed a year. So, it has helped to have us do one every year since. And actually we're about to kick off work on 2021. Mark: That's great. Kevin: Wow. And the past years' defaults are also still available if you want it? Matt: Yeah. So, we keep them all updated and secure and everything like that, including right now, the big thing is updating for them for Gutenberg. Gutenberg is our new way of managing everything on the web and writing things in WordPress. Kevin: I'm not sure. I don't know what Gutenberg is. Is this another... I mean, what is Gutenberg? Matt: So, Gutenberg replaces the old WYSIWYG editor that was built into WordPress. Kevin: Oh, okay. Matt: And instead of trying to be like a copy of Microsoft Word, it actually says that online what's beautiful is the structure and the embeds and the ability to move things around. And so, based on both my experience building CMSs, writing courses that I took in places like Paris, and also just trying to get people to build cooler things on the web, we made it. So, the fundamental Gutenberg, what you edit in Gutenberg is blocks, not just documents. And so, you can rearrange the blocks. You can move them around, you can create reusable blocks, so you can use them again and again in different posts. It's a really fun system. It's also the future of WordPress. We open-sourced it, so people are starting to use it outside of WordPress. So, I could see it being kind of the future text box on the web 10 years from now. Kevin: Cool. Mark: That's great. All right. Well, Matt, I want to thank you for sharing all these wonderful tools with us. And it was just so much fun talking to someone who has indirectly been a big part of my life for many years. Thank you so much for creating WordPress and maintaining it. It means a lot to me and to a lot of people around the world. Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, you've been working behind the scenes to keep our sites going, which we really appreciate. Matt: Aah, that means a lot to me. If there's ever way I can be of help, please let me know. Mark: Hey everybody, it's your cohost Mark. And I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more going on here in Cool Tools than just this podcast. We have our flagship website where we review a new tool every day, that's at cool-tools.org. We also have four different newsletters, we have this podcast, we have a YouTube channel where we review tools. And if you like what you hear and see and read, the best way to help us out is by going to our Patreon page at patreon.com/cooltools and donate at any level you wish. You can even contribute $1 a month, and that would mean a lot to us. The money that you give us will go towards paying for our transcribing costs, editing videos, and editing the podcast. It goes towards paying contributors who write the reviews for us. It goes towards our equipment costs, our hosting costs, and it supports our very small company of three people. This week. I wanted to give a shout-out to some of our Patreon supporters who have been giving us at least $2 a month. And if you give us $2 a month, we'll give you a shout-out online. And this week I would like to thank Michael [Sakuchia 00:33:18], Molly Star, M. Velderman, Opposable Thumbs, Pamela Cooley, Patrick Weigher, Paul Hosey, Randy Fisher, Stuart Burrows Brand, Synaptic Sam, Therese Swartz, Tom Hawkins, Tom Markham, What Bear, Javier Pangolin, David Lang, Eric Byers, Sean Hartley, Steven Powell, Greg [Lichshteith 00:33:42], John Hopson, Adam Bristol, Adam Naher, Anonymous, Bill Kempthorne, Bruce I. Niles, Chris Woodruff, C. Colos, Darryl Flynn, Egg [Fleegoff 00:33:54], Eric [Hentrow 00:33:57], Eric Hoover, Godfrey Soldana, Jay Skiles, John M. Larson, Jude Gallaghan, Kenneth Gilman and Lucas frank. 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